Winning the Rural Vote with Jim Hightower
Heidi Heitkamp (00:04):
Welcome back to The Hot Dish. I'm Heidi Heitkamp.
Joel Heitkamp (00:08):
And I'm Joel Heitkamp. Before we dive in, I just want to remind all you listeners that we love hearing from you. We want you to tell us what you think. What are your thoughts about living in rural America and in small towns across the country? What do you want to hear us talk about on the show? We want to know. Email us at podcast@onecountryproject.com. That's podcast@onecountryproject.com.
Heidi Heitkamp (00:33):
We do have a really big show today. I'll be talking to a guy who's been a proud advocate for rural America since he founded the Agribusiness Accountability Project in D.C. way back in 1970, and I am really excited for you all to hear the interview that I did with Texas Ag Commissioner and Progressive firebrand, Jim Hightower. I know that's a blast from the past, but he's as spicy as ever, he's as folksy as ever, and he is as committed as ever to doing the right thing, and so he'll be joining me later in the show. But first, our young friends Zeke and Luke have completed their Crossroad America's summer tour and they've stopped by to give us a final update.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
I had been maybe a little bit worried that it would've been weird for two city kids to be in the middle of nowhere coming up to people with cameras, but honestly, most of the time people were receptive and they were friendly, and that made for a really good experience for us. One of the patterns we noticed from visiting so many different places around the country, whether they be big cities or small towns, is that people pretty much everywhere, there were few exceptions, but generally people did want their stories to be told. And no matter if the preconceptions we had about them or if we were nervous to go up to them and talk for any reason, a lot of people were just open and they wanted to tell their stories with us.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
I think just in the comments section, we're able to see a lot of positive support from people on both sides of the aisle. And that's not to say that our topics were not controversial and that we didn't have people arguing in the comments, but I think the important thing was that they would be arguing and saying mean things about characters of the video, but as people who conveyed the information, they trusted us.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
So one of the people we met who really stuck out to me was a farmer from Avondale, Colorado. We filmed with him for two days actually, and he walked us through a day in his life, going out and checking the crops, talking with his workers, stuff like that. He really emphasized the importance to him of giving back to his community and trying to invest in the circle that is his family and his friends who have been there for generations, his kids and local businesses, and all these people who feed each other in this community. And his approach to farming I think was inspiring for me and hopefully to other people who will try to be a little more intentional about where they get their food from.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
From the atypical rural community of like a Native American reservation being something that's really important to look at, all the way to small town Mississippi, where like I think I found my most prominent experience was in a canoe trail right by Tylertown. And it was a very small town, very deep south, very religious, but their community had a sort of bond that I think I admire a lot and that you don't get to see, or at least you see in a different way in a bigger city. We went to the courthouse, everyone knew everyone. There was a old high school teacher who was really warm in the community, and there was that sense of warmth between people that we didn't know we would see to such a level. It's easy to imagine southern rural communities as more hostile towards folks, but among each other at least they're very nice and very warm. And I think for city people looking at rural areas and on the flip side for rural areas looking at the city, there are a lot of assumptions that are made. There's got to be a greater desire to have some understanding and have that education and knowledge about whatever place you don't live in.
(04:20):
I normally don't go on a trip expecting to find anything huge that changes my mind. I expected to find certain things, but what I really found was that we have this problem in America, issues with polarization that we all know and read and listen to. But to actually be there and see the effect, it is so astounding and it shows how when the media portrays what its audience wants to hear and when there's no outlet to learn easily about places to which you're unfamiliar, it can be really devastating what you hear. And then we find this in cities and in rural communities because everyone listens to their set agenda and they don't get to hear about other things. And I think it's sad in a lot of ways because you don't get to hear about so much of the beauty that this country has to offer. And I think there was rewarding feelings in both exploring those places and meeting those people. I think it was also really fulfilling to learn about that issue and try to work against that issue as we were creating these videos and sharing it to our audience.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah. For me, I think I really enjoyed getting to feel towards the end of the trip, I really understood a lot of the country and where people are at. It's again, easy to make a lot of assumptions beforehand, but going out there and talking to people and hearing those stories, and there's still so much to learn, but I really feel like I understand people from Green Bank, West Virginia and New York City and Tampa, Florida and all these different places. And so having that understanding about all these different sets of people and identities.
(06:03):
Then on a personal level, I don't know, I feel like I know how to live a good life now. If you listen to our stories and our videos just from understanding these very human stories, the regrets that people have, their hopes and their dreams and their concerns and their fears and all of that, you get a sense of what's important to people, the consistencies across the whole country and the world, I assume. And so I think that's been pretty rewarding as I try to reflect on it, and I think it's shaped us into better people and probably better citizens of this country being able to empathize with all these different perspectives and feel like we understand them now.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
We have three more videos that we plan to release, and we're looking at potentially doing flights out to Alaska and why to do an additional two videos, so keep an eye out for those on our YouTube channel Crossroads America.
Heidi Heitkamp (06:49):
In the late 1960s, Jim Hightower worked in D.C. as a legislative aide. And in 1982, Hightower was elected Texas Agriculture Commissioner and served two terms. He's written seven books, has a syndicated radio show and column as well as a newsletter, the Lowdown. He is an icon in terms of good policy organizing in rural America. I want to welcome Jim Hightower to our podcast, The Hot Dish. Welcome.
Jim Hightower (07:26):
Hey, Heidi, great to be with you and all of you podcasters.
Heidi Heitkamp (07:27):
Well, a lot of people who listen to this will know your name. So why don't you catch us up first on what you've been doing and how you're still in the fight to bring good policy to rural America?
Jim Hightower (07:42):
I basically make a living by running my mouth, so I'm on radio and about 150 stations around the country with my little commentaries. Six months ago, I didn't know what a Substack was, and now I am one that produces two commentaries a week on that. Then I do just a lot of supporting of grassroots people. They're the great strength of our country. I know that's a cliche, but it's also true. And so I try to invest my time in local people who are making great fights, and some of those are political fights, but mostly they're economic battles and farmers trying to stand up to the monopolies. And by the way, a food worker is trying to stand up to the monopolies as well, and right now involved in trying to see, we can't reignite the old farm labor in our country for rural America. That would be an enormous benefit and would bring progressive people power back to the grassroots level.
Heidi Heitkamp (08:37):
For those of us who haven't had a chance to visit with you for maybe the last 10, 15 years, tell me how you see rural America from the lens of how it's changed since you started your advocacy work for rural America and where we are now.
Jim Hightower (08:54):
Fundamentally, the issues are exactly the same. I was along with you and Byron Dorgan and other great fighters who were part of the farm, the Tractorcade in the late seventies and 1980s, and we even had a big powwow down in St. Louis that Willie Nelson put together led to Farm Aid for farmers and ranchers to come together and write their own farm bill. And we did do that. We got a number of things put in there by Tom Harkin and a few other good members of Congress managed to squeeze in some benefits for the rural areas. But what's happened is that the politicians of both parties basically have either exploited rural voters or ignored them. I come to you as a Democrat, but I'm afraid that our party has abandoned rural America over the last several years. In fact, there's a whole group within the National Democratic Party that says we should just give up on rural America. They've all gone conservative.
(09:54):
I think of my own father, if a pollster had gone to his door and knocked on it and said, "Are you a liberal or a conservative?" He would've said, "Better put me down as a conservative." But if you talked about the Walmarts that were driving small business like is out of business in small town of Denison, Texas, if you talked about the power of the oil companies to control the legislature, if you talked about the monopolies generally, if you were in front of as strong a populist as you could ever want to be in front of and that spirit is still there. And I think our party is beginning now, and particularly with Kamala Harris and Tim Walz to come around to the notion that we can run in rural areas and win not just on our issues but on our values, and that those are values of economic fairness, social justice, equal opportunity for all people. That's what we believe in as a Democratic Party, and I think that's what we believe in as a country.
Heidi Heitkamp (10:47):
When I left the Senate, I had some leftover dollars and I started One Country. I didn't call it Rural America Democratic Project. I called it One Country because as I like to remind people, what we want in rural America is not different than what a laborer wants in Detroit or what a cab driver wants in New York. They want opportunity. They want their kids to live in a safe, good place and get a good education and maybe live a little bit better than what they lived.
Jim Hightower (11:17):
Yeah.
Heidi Heitkamp (11:17):
And so we and the Democratic Party have really failed to have that dialogue that I think is essential and it has left the Democratic Party vulnerable, and that's why your work is so important. We're two generations now away from the New Deal, which I think drove a lot of rural people to the Democratic Party. If you were going to make a pitch, how would you convince people in eastern, north Dakota, western Minnesota to vote for Kamala Harris?
Jim Hightower (11:49):
First of all, to look for policies that invest in the people themselves, not just national programs, but put the resources in the people's hands and they will make a difference. I know when I was Agriculture Commissioner here in Texas, we decided to launch a farmers' market program because I had seen farmers' markets work when I was a kid, had an uncle sold at a farmers' market in Weatherford, Texas, and yet the supermarkets had driven all the farmers' markets away. We didn't have any. So The Dallas News ran an editorial saying if the people wanted a farmers' market, the free market would've created the farmers' market, the free market drove the farmers' markets away. So we put resources, meaning people who knew how to organize local co-ops and local markets, how to connect to the farmers and the consumers and brought them together. In my view, the free in enterprise is not an adjective, it's a verb. You've got to free up the enterprise of local people.
(12:53):
And that to me is what I'm hearing Tim Walz and Kamala Harris talk about. And I think it's really significant that Kamala Harris chose Tim Walz, the least glamorous candidate she could have chosen for vice president with the least political clout in terms of a national election. But she saw in him what I see. I campaigned for Walz when he first ran for Congress in 2006, so I saw the same thing there, just an honesty and a commitment to those fundamental little d democratic values that would invest in ordinary people. And that's what we've got to get back to. Instead of trickle down economics has become tinkle down economics, and it's not worked for regular working stiffs and farmers and consumers and environmentalists and etc. We've got to get back to a policy that is a policy of by and for ordinary people.
Heidi Heitkamp (13:48):
Say, what's the difference between the political parties? And I said, just remember this. The Democratic Party has always invested in people, not institutions, not corporations, but people. That's our value. And when you look at the history and you think about the co-op movement, I'm old enough to remember when Republicans thought that was communism.
Jim Hightower (14:10):
Yeah.
Heidi Heitkamp (14:10):
Now we have a lot of Republicans running for the co-op board, right?
Jim Hightower (14:13):
Right.
Heidi Heitkamp (14:14):
And so the next big idea that's going to reengage or reignite rural America is going to come from the Democratic Party. The Republicans exploit what we do and we reinvent the wheel to accommodate the times. And so when you're looking at Texas, everybody looks at Texas and expects because of demographics that Texas might be the next big state to go blue. Texas ever went blue, I think that would be very hard for the Republicans to overcome that number of electoral votes. But how is it looking in Texas? A lot of people who listen will want to know, is Allred going to beat Cruz or is that just a pipe dream?
Jim Hightower (14:54):
No, we got a real shot at that and the polls reflect that. But more importantly, the enthusiasm that is out there. We're not that far removed from a progressive Texas, so there's not a lot of progressive money in rural America, but there's a lot of progressive enthusiasm out there, and we've got to tap into that. There are strong grassroots efforts all across the board. Texas is now a minority state, so diversity is a very positive position to have. In fact, you almost have to have it. And even Republican tried to, I remember when Bill Clements, a Republican was running for governor, he put out word that he was taking Spanish lessons, and I said, "Good. Now he'll be bi-ignorant."
Heidi Heitkamp (15:34):
Bilingual, bi-ignorant.
Jim Hightower (15:36):
Yes. Also, that's a big thing about politics in Texas, but I think everywhere. And Tim Walz is showing, and Carla Harris is showing it too, that you have to have a sense of fun. Even one of my staffers when I was ag commissioner, we were taking on the pesticide industry. The odds are against us on this one. I said, "Some of the evens are against us too." So you've got to have that spirit and find a way to reach out and build that coalition of ordinary people. And the battles that I have fought have always been won, not on the inside. The inside is where money dominates. That's where the lobbyists come in. That's where our party, Democratic Party had been weaseling on inside fights. If you bring the people from the outside to the inside, then you can win. So that's what I see that we have to do, and we're trying to develop that here in Texas in terms of specific ways to do it.
Heidi Heitkamp (16:31):
Such a consequential election. I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you to give us your point of view on the former president. This is this third race. Third time he's been nominated by his party and I think we need to point that out, that this is a party that in my opinion, is definitely broken, if that's your standard-bearer. But I bet you have a lot to say about Donald Trump.
Jim Hightower (16:55):
He and JD Vance and now Robert Kennedy Jr., they're giving weird a bad name. And Trump, he's a bully. He's a fraud. He has cheated people all across the board his entire life. His father did the same, by the way, and the Republicans had made a choice to be with concentrated power. And Trump is not merely their standard-bearer. He is the party now. Almost no Republicans in an office level are willing to stand up at all to Trump, and so that party has become whatever Trump is, and I'm not sure what that is exactly.
Heidi Heitkamp (17:34):
What shocks me, Jim, is that you'd take a look at Donald Trump, and you've spent enough time at the coffee shops in rural America and at the grain elevators and at the VFW halls. No one would want that guy for their neighbor.
Jim Hightower (17:48):
Yeah.
Heidi Heitkamp (17:48):
You wouldn't want. That guy'd drained water on your property. That guy would pretend that he is a big donor to the church when he was only putting in a quarter. That's who he is, right?
Jim Hightower (17:57):
Yeah, right. Exactly.
Heidi Heitkamp (17:59):
So they wouldn't want him as a neighbor, but yet they'll vote almost overwhelmingly for this guy. How do we square that with the image that you've given us of what is important in rural America?
Jim Hightower (18:10):
By us presenting ourselves as neighbors of rural America and as rural Americans ourselves. People are not voting for Trump. They're voting against the establishment. They're voting in rural areas because the rural areas have been ignored with great consequences, not just the opioid crisis, but towns are drying up. This is not something you have to explain to people because they're in it. They're the ones living it. And so we have to identify with them and then get out there and offer ourselves as a real, not a solution, but a way to organize grassroots power for themselves, for those people who are being. Trump and his crowd, they're knocking down the middle class, they're holding down the poor, they're tearing down our democratic rights. And this is not something we just sit idly and say, "Oh, we're not going to bother running in red areas."
(19:03):
It's surprising how soon you can reach people. When I first ran for office here, I would go to county courthouses because I was a year out from running, and so people weren't paying attention to politics, but in courthouses they did. And I was in Tyler, Texas over in East Texas, and my local guy taking me around said, "Let's go up and meet this judge. He's a district judge, but don't dump your whole load on him because he's pretty conservative." So I went up and sat down and he was cranked back and his hat back and his feet up on his desk and looking at me and this young punk, "Okay, give me your spiel." And so I started out, "Well, one thing I'm going to do is try to take on the gas utilities, sir. Judge, it seems to me," because I wanted to be cautious here, "It seemed to me that they're not being entirely fair with us consumers and farmers and et cetera." And his feet came off that desk and hit the floor with a bang. He popped up and leaned right into my face and said, "Hightower, in your private moments, wouldn't you say they're fornicating us?"
(20:05):
And I said, "Yes, Sir I would, and I will again." And he said, "Then I'm going to be for you." And he's supposed to be conservative. So those are the people we got to go talk to. And again, you got to do it with a sense of humility, a sense of offering, to be of help and listen to what they say help is, and then going directly to them and using that sense of humor. I've been used to say that humor is the key that unlocks the mind. And I found that to be true in speechifying and radio and stuff that I do.
Heidi Heitkamp (20:39):
Yeah, and people definitely, even if they don't agree with you, they want to hear you talk.
Jim Hightower (20:42):
Yeah, exactly.
Heidi Heitkamp (20:43):
If you're funny, right?
Jim Hightower (20:45):
Yeah. At least to entertain us.
Heidi Heitkamp (20:47):
Mr. Hightower, you're still in the fight and-
Jim Hightower (20:50):
Absolutely.
Heidi Heitkamp (20:50):
... we're better off in this country because you are. And to have you on the podcast is just such a blessing for me because those of us who grew up politically in the '80s and '90s in those fights for Fair Farm Bills for American farmers, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it. Jim Hightower, folks, on the podcast. Where could people hear more from you?
Jim Hightower (21:18):
Jimhightower.com is the website and you can connect with everything there.
Heidi Heitkamp (21:24):
Great. Thanks so much, Jim, for joining us.
Jim Hightower (21:27):
Thank you. Great to be with you, Heidi.
Heidi Heitkamp (21:34):
Okay. Listeners, we've recorded early, but this episode will be released the day after the first debate between VP Harris and former President Trump. We're going to have some special post-debate content and maybe even a short bonus episode for you, so check onecountryproject.com in your favorite podcast app for that. In the meantime, Joel, let's talk about what today means. This is September 11th, and we have been engaged in the war and terror for many, many years now. And I think the frustration and some of the appeal of Donald Trump is that when he ran in '16, he said, "We've got to stop the endless wars." And that appealed to a lot of people who weren't partisan, but just were tired of American engagement overseas. And the question becomes, are we at risk now given the fatigue people have with the war on terror of the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction towards American isolationism?
Joel Heitkamp (22:39):
As far as fatigue goes, Heidi, I think we have to honestly ask ourselves when this stuff goes on and on, and when I say stuff, you can use the word tragedy goes on and on and on. Do people follow it? Do people care? And I think your thoughts are accurate thoughts, which is people just are in a 24-hour news cycle at times, and it doesn't aid in what's been going on.
Heidi Heitkamp (23:04):
I think people are very concerned that American engagement doesn't really resolve anything, but yet we see what would happen in Ukraine if the Americans stopped supporting the Ukrainians in their quest for democracy and freedom and their fight against Putin, and so it's always really, really tough.
Joel Heitkamp (23:27):
I mean, you stay in touch with a lot of former partners of yours, former colleagues of yours as a former senator. These people are United States senators you're talking to, and so there are a group of them that, like John McCain was, aren't afraid to stick up for individuals that are being attacked.
Heidi Heitkamp (23:45):
I think it's clear that this election will have really interesting and serious consequences for our transatlantic relationship and for America's foreign policy.
Joel Heitkamp (23:57):
Well, there's no question in that, and I would argue that the difference between the two candidates is one actually knows geographically where the countries are we talk about. But that being said, I really believe that America, when it comes to foreign affairs, when it makes its decisions at the ballot box, foreign affairs is way down the list.
Heidi Heitkamp (24:19):
Well, when you think about Hillary Clinton, she had been the Secretary of State. She had been a first lady who had been a close advisor to the president on all matters including foreign policy. But there's going to be some questions about whether Vice President Harris has the same foreign policy jobs. Obama selected Biden because of Biden's relationship and his foreign policy chops to be the VP. Tim Walz doesn't have that resume. So does that hurt the Democratic ticket that they don't have a strong foreign policy resume?
Joel Heitkamp (24:55):
Yeah. And again, I think, Heidi, I would answer no, it doesn't hurt the Harris-Walz ticket because of, well, here's the best example I can give you. We're out of Afghanistan. President Trump promised that when he got into office, the first thing he was going to focus on was getting us out of Afghanistan. We're sitting here right now with Afghanistan. He didn't do it, by the way. Obviously it took President Biden to do it. Didn't go well, didn't go smoothly. There's a lot of issues that went along with it, but when it comes to foreign affairs, that's being talked about a whole lot more than President Trump's relationship with Vladimir Putin. I mean, it just is. And so those two things in my mind aren't really comparable. Did we have some tragic loss of life in Afghanistan? Absolutely. Absolutely. That's not my point. My point is the American people will focus more on what's being said instead of what's being done when it comes to foreign affairs.
Heidi Heitkamp (26:03):
Joel, I agree with you. A foreign policy is pretty limited. People are voting their pocketbook. They're saying the economy and inflation, the border, whether it's reproductive rights, whether it is democracy, there's a lot of issues that come before all of those.
Joel Heitkamp (26:21):
And not the least of which is personality, which is why Tim Walz is such a strength on this ticket because his personality, what he's done with his life, America loves. They love a teacher, they love a coach, and people have Trump fatigue. They have Trump fatigue, and they don't have Walz fatigue. It's one thing to vote for somebody, it's another thing to like them.
Heidi Heitkamp (26:46):
Oh, Joel, we're coming into your favorite season of all. You got rid of all the family out of the lake. You get your house back. But before we go, Joel, we need an update on the pumpkin patch.
Joel Heitkamp (27:01):
Oh, yeah. Well, pumpkin patch suffered from some real wet conditions. My warty goblins are not doing as well as what I would hope they do. My gourds are strong. My gourds are really strong. That was on the higher ground.
Heidi Heitkamp (27:18):
Is there a big market for gourds?
Joel Heitkamp (27:20):
You know, there is. Sue told me that. She said, "People like gourds because they can put them and it doesn't take up as much room as pumpkins and when you get a little freeze thaw, they don't drip all over your driveway." But I mean, here's the thing. I've had fun with it. The whole game plan was to get the grandkids away from any computer or touch screen they had and make them come out and hoe and see something grow and pick some weeds and have some fun. If that was the plan, it completely failed. I've done all the watering, I've done all the weed picking, I've done all the hoeing, but I've never exactly been a farmer. And most of the people listening to this One Country podcasts are going to say, "Duh." But I've never really been a farmer, and now I know what it's like to grow something from the ground up. And I liked it. I had fun with it, and I'm going to do it next year.
Heidi Heitkamp (28:15):
Well, I wish you well, Joel and I wish... Well, that's not true. I don't wish the Vikings well. Don't tell anyone I said that though.
Joel Heitkamp (28:22):
Well, okay. One thing about football before we obviously are moving out of this thing now, but isn't it interesting that you now work with the University of Chicago, you have a place in Chicago, and then all of a sudden, you're a Chicago fan. I mean, you talk about Trump and these guys sucking up to him. What happens if you went to Russia and Putin said, "My God, I love that red hair. You're so smart." I mean, would you all of a sudden be a Russian fan? I mean, you're either a fan or you're not a fan. I've lived through the good and the bad, mostly bad with my Vikings. I'm a season ticket holder. I like them. I love them. And by guard, they're going to make me mad again this year. But I'm there. I'm a fan.
Heidi Heitkamp (29:10):
Well, don't you think you should cheer for the hometown team?
Joel Heitkamp (29:14):
Yeah.
Heidi Heitkamp (29:14):
I do not cheer for the Cubs or the White Sox.
Joel Heitkamp (29:18):
You have been a Pittsburgh Steelers fan when they were winning. You're a Green Bay fan when they're winning. Now the Bears look like they may do okay, but the Bears usually find a way to blow up just like the Vikings, and so other than 85. So here's the thing. I'm not some fair weather fan. I'm not that sock on the end of the airport runway. I'm there. I am there.
Heidi Heitkamp (29:45):
Joel, a man who can't change their mind, a person who can't change their mind is a dinosaur. So change your mind, Joel.
Joel Heitkamp (29:54):
When it comes to sports, a person that changed their mind has no soul.
Heidi Heitkamp (30:02):
Well, listen, that is this episode of The Hot Dish. We have 55 days until the election. It's going to be a whirlwind. Joel and I are going to stay focused on what this election means to rural and small-town America, so keep listening to The Hot Dish.
Joel Heitkamp (30:18):
And tell your friends about us. We're here to make sure the voices of the rest of us are heard in Washington, and we want everyone to be part of this. Learn more about us at onecountryproject.com and email us at podcast@onecountryproject.com.
Heidi Heitkamp (30:38):
Today just take a moment to say a prayer of thanks for all the first responders who ran into burning buildings, knowing that they probably wouldn't be able to come back out. These are the heroes of our country, the everyday people who sacrificed for their citizens. And so today is a day of remembrance, about what it means to sacrifice. It was the worst day of probably my time as an American, but also the best day when you see people sacrifice. So thanks so much for listening. We're going to be back in two weeks with another episode of The Hot Dish, Comfort Food for Middle America.
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