One Country Project's Hot Dish

Heidi Heitkamp:
Welcome to the Hot Dish Comfort Food for middle America. I'm Heidi Heitkamp.

Joel Heitkamp:
And I'm Joel Heitkamp. Heidi, we have a lot going on in this episode, and I'm gonna start by asking you a question. What do you know about TikTok?

Heidi Heitkamp:
I know only when people send me videos that I can't watch because I've never downloaded the platform because I've always believed that it would create security problems for me. But I also know that, you know, when they were run ads to kind of protect TikTok, they have a nun. And I thought that was genius. And a lot of people use it.

Joel Heitkamp:
Well, there's no question about that. You know, the world I live in, the horse is out of the barn, right? I mean, it's done, it's over, it's out there. If they were going to get information, they're locked in, they got information.

Heidi Heitkamp:
And anyone who thinks the Chinese government doesn't collect all this data is just not paying attention. But we're going to have more on this episode on TikTok later. But want to cover something because you've been on the radio a lot, a lot of people in full on panic, if not confusion, but if not full on panic over the OMB memo regarding the freeze on federal expenditures. It's like the chaos is back. And what I find interesting, Joel, about this is he finally had to back up, which Donald Trump doesn't do very often. He backed up, withdrew the memo, and then blamed the media because they spread misinformation. He has any opportunity to clarify what he meant in that memo. He didn't know what he meant.

Heidi Heitkamp:
And all of a sudden they got caught.

Joel Heitkamp:
I had Senator Cramer on with me and I asked him, I flat out asked him, is what Donald Trump doing legal? And he kind of danced around it a little bit. And I pushed back. I said, I can understand executive orders that Joe Biden had. In reversing executive orders, Donald Trump is the chief executive. But to reverse what Congress passed and is in the law budget items, I mean, is that legal? And finally got the, the senator to come out and say, no, it's not legal. And then I said, what are you going to do about it? It was simple, right? What are you going to do about it? And he said, well, it's making its way through the courts. And I said, he didn't attack the courts, he didn't attack the judiciary. He, he attacked you, the halls of Congress.

Joel Heitkamp:
Are you going to retain your power or not? And basically what he told me, it isn't basic. This is what he told me. He said, well, we know now that we have the ability to sue the executive branch. I said, well, you're going to sue him? Are you bringing a lawsuit? The truth of the matter is, Heidi, they're afraid of him, and he can do whatever he wants. He had to back up because there was a lot of people on SNAP and on fuel assistance and a lot of people that needed help. And he couldn't even answer the question at, through the press conference about Medicaid. So he wasn't ready. He wasn't ready, Heidi.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Well, and I think this is one of those, oh, it sounds really good. Let's just put a complete pause. And then all of a sudden, people who are waiting for FEMA assistance aren't getting it. All of a sudden, you know, farmers aren't getting their disaster payments. And, you know, I thought it was interesting because people who support Donald Trump had basically said, oh, don't got nothing to see here. Well, there was something to see here, and this was real. And I told a group that I'm part of who has secured a number of federal grants. I said, don't count on them.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Don't count on this money coming, because, you know, they're gonna go back and re trench and figure out where they can push the button. And the one thing that didn't get changed is all of the foreign assistance, the money that goes to NGOs and to organizations like, like the World Food Program, like usaid, to basically provide hunger assistance throughout the world, that money is gone. I mean, they have frozen that out of the State Department. And so I think it's really important for people to say, is this what I voted for? And in the meantime, eggs are at a record high and gas is going up and, you know, inflation, guess what? Your insurance bill's not going down. You know, so if this was about the economy, let's focus on the economy. But none of this is helping the economy. And, you know, I'm a fiscal conservative, probably a hawkish about a lot of this. But the bottom line is right now, federal expenditures are about 25% of the overall economy.

Heidi Heitkamp:
And when you. And that's because these investments in infrastructure, you know, roads, highways, when you cut that out, it's going to have a negative effect on a lot of people in this country. I'm not saying we shouldn't have a very harsh discussion about what we can afford anymore in this country. But guess what? When the airport authority doesn't worry about whether their construction is going to halt. But we don't have food to feed hungry children. There's a prioritization here that needs to be talked about.

Joel Heitkamp:
When you look at what Donald Trump did here one day I got. You don't understand it, Joel. So then I went through the website and said, okay, tell me, is this banned? Is that banned? Is that froze? Is this froze? The next day, when he completely reversed himself, somebody called into my show and said, you owe the people that listened to you an apology. See, and I did exactly what you're doing. I just broke out laughing and I said, you still can't tell me what was frozen. And in fact, I still think he's still doing some of that and people aren't tracking it. And so the issue I brought up, a lot of people listen to us here on the Hot Dish on One country, the one thing. And I'm going to give you just a couple examples.

Joel Heitkamp:
Number one, we were dry last year. We got dry. If you got in the field early here in the upper Midwest, you had a pretty decent crop. But after that, the rains quit, okay? Some of those guys still got 200 bushel corn on the Northern Plains. The reason they got 200 bushel corn is because of the research that is done by NDSU and sdsu. Those people don't know if they're going to get any research dollars. Then I raised the question on my show of crop insurance because we don't have a new farm bill, you know, and if he's going to just take it upon himself to dictate and mandate whatever he wants, and Project 2025 says get rid of it, which is his blueprint. That's his game plan.

Joel Heitkamp:
I mean, ask the Philadelphia Eagles and the Kansas City Chiefs. They have a game plan, right? Well, his game plan is Project 2025. It gets rid of federal crop insurance. And so I think some of these people are finally waking up about how much he's putting them in danger.

Heidi Heitkamp:
I'm a little nerdy on this because when I was in college, actually a junior in college, I did a whole paper on the Budget Empowerment Act. I mean, that sounds really boring, but I thought it was fascinating. And what caused the passage of the Budget Empowerment act is Richard Nixon did the same thing. Richard Nixon basically said, I'm not going to spend the money that Congress has appropriated. And Congress back then, when it actually worked and responded using their Article 1 authority, passed the Budget Empowerment Act. That's why the fiscal year starts in September. That was the first move. And they basically said that the President you know, at the time they were talking about the imperial presidency, the President does not have the authority to not, they implement the laws.

Heidi Heitkamp:
They don't determine, you know, what the laws are. And so now when you go back and you look at that Budget Empowerment act, we're in the same spot that we were before. And should we curtail spending, should we get rid of waste, should we do all the things that need to be done in terms of prioritization of the federal budget. Absolutely. But it needs to be done in conjunction with the Congress and it needs to be done in full transparency with the American public so they can decide is this the direction we want the government to go. And if you thought that we aren't headed for autocracy, you should really think that because the power of the purse is the power of government. And what Donald Trump said is, I don't care what Congress does, I am going to make these decisions for the rest of the country. And I think your discussion with Senator Cramer.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Absolutely. Right on. They should have that discussion with everyone.

Joel Heitkamp:
So the power that Donald Trump holds over Republicans in Congress is primary. I mean that's his power, that he's gonna primary them, that he's gonna find a MAGA candidate. He does it anyway. If he doesn't like you, whether or not you toe his line or not. But that's his power. If you're those individuals and you're that worried about reelection and he's cutting heating assistance and he's cutting SNAP and you've gotta go back to these districts and he's cutting crop insurance and you've got to go back to those states, those districts, and run based upon what you've just allowed to happen. It doesn't matter if you're primaried, you're going to lose. I mean that image in that campaign of that 80 year old lady who no longer has heating fuel in her house or no longer has food.

Joel Heitkamp:
Because you and I both know that people that use SNAP, that the majority of them are elderly or they're working. Yeah.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Or working. They're working poor. Yeah.

Joel Heitkamp:
And so, you know, here you sit. And if I'm a congressman, I don't want to go home and run in a district that he beat up like that just by a stroke of a pen. I don't hide.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah. Well, you know, there's a reason why he backed up and apparently pretty thin skinned over at the White House because a lot of members were calling saying you got to fix this. And, and he didn't like being told what to do by Congress. And so I think that every day, Joel, I kind of didn't think this would happen, and I guess I'm naive. Every day there is something else. And now we have this tragic, tragic accident. And the first response is to blame someone as opposed to try and figure out how it was that a military helicopter was within the flight plan of an American jet.

Heidi Heitkamp:
I mean, that was a military helicopter. So, you know, what's it doing there? And, you know, we'll find out more and more, but the reaction always is, how do I blame someone else as opposed to how do I fix the problem? So, Joel, let's change the subject. Let's talk about national security and social media and let's talk about TikTok.

Joel Heitkamp:
You know, listeners, you probably heard about TikTok, but you might not know, you know, what it is. It's a social media app for sharing short videos that a lot of folks love, especially younger people. A lot of people have businesses that depend on TikTok, and folks use it to educate and share information, important information. For example, you've got people like Tyler Froberg, a fourth generation farmer who's teaching veterans how to farm diversified fruits and vegetables in Texas. His TikTok channel has 850,000 followers. Morgan Gold, who left corporate America to become a farmer. He uses TikTok to help people understand the finances of owning and running a farm. He has over 2 million followers.

Joel Heitkamp:
Alexis Nikole Nelson, whose educational video is about foraging and cooking wild plants, have brought her 4.5 million followers. These people are doing good work with TikTok, but we all know, right, it has some problems.

Heidi Heitkamp:
I mean, you know, we have to rely somewhat on the folks in Congress who have access to a lot more intel about the potential damage that TikTok would do. But you also have to wonder, Joel, is the cat out of the bag? Are we just a little late to this show? So I think having this discussion right now is critical. And so no one wants the Chinese government to have access to all the data about every single TikTok user anywhere in the world. And that should and does make a lot of people, especially cybersecurity specialists, very nervous. Last year, Congress passed a law banning TikTok unless it was purchased by American company. Donald Trump actually proposed this when he was president and originally agreed with it, but now he's changed his mind. Probably has something to do with the campaign contribution or with the fact that he got a lot of followers on TikTok, so now it's his platform. So I'm really excited to have this conversation to help us understand all of this.

Heidi Heitkamp:
I'm here with David Dorfman, deputy staff director and chief counsel of the House Select Committee on China, but also an old friend. We worked together on some reg reform stuff when I was in the Senate. David led the drafting, strategy, and bipartisan negotiations for the Protecting America from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act. That's a big wordful. But mainly it was the TikTok divestiture law. Welcome to the Hot Dish, David.

David Dorfman:
Thanks so much for having me. Senator, it's an honor to be here. You know, I'm a huge fan of your show and actually a rural American myself back in the day, so it's great to be here.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Well, listen, I think there's a lot of confusion, because every time someone says, it's a TikTok ban statute, I have fingernails kind of on the chalkboard. Because it doesn't ban TikTok. Tell us what the law actually does.

David Dorfman:
Senator, you hit the nail on the head. This is not a ban. TikTok has been lying, deceiving its users, telling them it's something it's not. All this law requires in order for TikTok to remain available in the United States is for ByteDance to sell the application to an American company, a Canadian company, a company that's not based in China, Russia, North Korea, or Iran.

Heidi Heitkamp:
So explain ByteDance.

David Dorfman:
Well, ByteDance is the parent company of TikTok, and unfortunately, it's controlled by the Chinese Communist Party. That is what Congress determined. And the problem with having a Chinese company control an app that 170 million Americans use is not that hard to understand, actually. I mean, a lot of TikTok users joke that the TikTok algorithm knows them better than they know themselves. It knows exactly what they want to see, and people hand over a lot of data about their usage, their identity, et cetera. Think about what China could do with that. It's, it's not hard to figure out.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah, and there is. There is an argument that the algorithm kind of analysis that people like so much on TikTok is actually owned by ByteDance. And so they don't want to give up that technology to an American company. So they're kind of playing fast and loose with, oh, you're banning TikTok. You're not banning TikTok. You're saying it can only be owned by an American company. And I want to make this point, which is the Chinese would never let this happen in China.

David Dorfman:
Absolutely. You know, and frankly, our Founding Fathers would have never allowed this to happen. In America. Can you imagine if after independence, you know, or brand new United States and there were British soldiers deciding who got to go into Boston Common and you had to hand over all your data in order to speak your mind in the town square of that day? I mean, they would have laughed that arrangement out of the room. Would we have allowed the Soviets to own major broadcast networks? No. So this is no different. This is simply the 21st century version of a long standing principle of American jurisprudence and regulating foreign ownership and national security.

Heidi Heitkamp:
So I'm on television quite a bit and I have panelists who always argue with me, oh, this is terrible. You're just. And I just say you don't know what you don't know. And having been in the Senate and knowing that there are briefings, intel briefings that are carried out, there's a whole intel committee, you know, there is a lot people don't know about what's currently happening and what the risk is and Congress can't tell them. And that puts you definitely at a different, as a disadvantage.

David Dorfman:
You know, that's certainly true, Senator. But you know, one thing that speaks volumes is the historic bipartisan margins this passed by and the fact that two presidents of separate political parties reached the same conclusion about this. I mean, honestly think about this timeline, Senator. Look, I led our investigation and bytedance, I got so in the weeds of this stuff. And we had our all hands on deck briefing for our committee on January 18 of last year. On March 5, we introduced the bill. Two days later, on March 7, it was marked up in the Energy and Commerce Committee after another classified briefing unanimously. Senator, you know, the Energy and Commerce Committee, a 500 vote in favor of this law.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Unheard of.

David Dorfman:
Unheard of. And then we went to the House floor the next week. Over360 votes in 2024, in our sadly partisan era, also unheard of. We passed the House again, equally large margin, we passed the Senate almost 80 votes. This is truly a model for how Congress can still get big things done even in this very partisan time.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah, and I had a discussion with a renowned constitutional scholar, literally because I'm at the University of Chicago. And it was interesting because he kept arguing with me that this act was in violation of free expression and free speech. And I kept saying it's a platform. So I think Supreme Court agreed with me. Not that that's a badge of honor these days. So I'm going to, I'm going to give you the practical response. Look, you waited too long. You let it get a toehold, you Let you know how many 130 million Americans use this platform.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Get used to it. Love it. And then you said, oh, no, no, no. Now that you've given all your information to the Chinese, we're going to take this platform away. And isn't this a little like, too little too late?

David Dorfman:
Well, I can't say the legislative process is perfect. Certainly it would have been better if Congress was able to come together and do this earlier. But we've been trying and frankly, we've been failing for years. It was our strategy and it was the ranking member's leadership that really got this across the finish line. Finally, in 2020, there were executive orders to try to force a divestiture. The court struck that down. It relied on something called IEPA. There's an exception in it that didn't allow for that to be upheld.

David Dorfman:
The next President tried to do this through the CFIUS Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States process. That got held up too. Certain states tried to do this for different reasons at the state level. And there were multiple bills in Congress, the Restrict act, multiple others that unfortunately didn't go anywhere. What set us apart is we scoped this right, we employed smart strategy, we drafted it in a constitutional manner, and we got it across the finish line. And what truly I think is so monumental about this is that, yes, it would have been ideal if we acted on this threat sooner, but now, because of this law, the President will have the authority to prevent similar threats from emerging. A little pet issue of mine was people don't know. ByteDance actually is one of the largest VR virtual reality headset manufacturers in the world.

David Dorfman:
And this law even includes the authority to address that threat, augmented or immersive technologies. So going forward, we now have the framework to do exactly what you said, Senator, and prevent similar threats from emerging.

Heidi Heitkamp:
So I just want to pivot just for a second into Deep Seek and into kind of this AI race that we're in with China and just draw on your expertise. Are we losing the fight? Are we winning the fight? Where are we at with the Chinese as it relates to AI?

David Dorfman:
Well, I've been actually leading a lot of work for the ranking member on this very issue. And I spent a lot of my time in Congress actually on the cutting edge of AI regulation and promoting AI innovation. And I think this moment should be a wake up call for all Americans. Winning this race is not inevitable. We need to invest in innovation, we need to regulate responsibly, and we need to take Deep seek seriously. We can't stagnate and we can't wait much longer. If we don't act on this very troubling development soon, it may be too late.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Well, I think it's interesting because it's attractive from a standpoint of if, in fact it uses less energy, if it provides greater transparency. I've been reading all this stuff. I am just a, I mean, I am kind of a groupie on AI, but I think I know enough to know how much I don't know. And so, David, we are going to get together again and talk about kind of where tech regulation is headed, what you see in the next four years.

David Dorfman:
I think one thing we can all learn from the TikTok law is, you know, whatever is going on in society, Congress still can get big things done on a bipartisan basis. You know, folks said we couldn't do this. We got it done. And that's because honestly, as you know all too well, there are good folks on Capitol Hill who are fighting hard for our national security. We're going to keep fighting the good fight and making sure that our national security is protected.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Can you come back and talk about kind of technology, technology regulation and where it's headed and I particularly given that both of us hail from rural places, what that means.

David Dorfman:
Absolutely, Senator, happy to come on anytime. It's so important that Congress take action on AI for too long, we forgot that we're Article 1 of the Constitution over here. When there's a big issue of the day, no matter what it is, we got to step up, we got to do our jobs. And I think the TikTok law is a perfect example of how we can in fact, do that.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah. Thanks so much, David, for coming on.

Joel Heitkamp:
That was a really interesting conversation. But we also wanted you to hear from a user's perspective. Sayen Gates is a small business owner in South Carolina who's used TikTok to grow her life coaching business. She's already experienced challenges with the on again, off again TikTok band. But you know what? We'll let her explain.

Sayen Gates:
I started using TikTok around 2020. That was during the time that I realized what my gift was. I was out here giving my, my pearls to my friends and I'm like, well, probably not too many people know about the basics of communication or the basics of like, how to approach someone or how to manifest your dreams. I started to notice people that were emailing me or they would text me about like, what are some things that I can do to communicate better? Or how much do you charge? And I was like, okay, this, this seems like a legitimate business. I got my llc and then after that I had been branching out ever since. I started to see a shift when I got to about a thousand followers to know that I was doing something right. I expanded to other platforms, but they didn't see as much progressive as it was on TikTok. The banning concern for TikTok.

Sayen Gates:
I understand the concern because number one, we have to think about the influence that we have on children as well as teenagers because they're following this type of stuff. My niece knows the Renegade dance because of TikTok and she follows that. And there's a lot of positive content on TikTok. However, it's overshadowed by all the mess that we don't see, like, the good in it. And I understand like the concern about it. And I can only speak for, like myself and for a friend of mine who has a lot of followers. That was her ticket out of doing a 9 to 5. And it's not like she didn't want to do a 9 to 5.

Sayen Gates:
It was just the fact of she noticed that when she was on TikTok, she made what she made at her job in 24 hours. And we're talking about like five to $800. Now that income is being retracted because there's national security at State. So for me personally, I can, I can still be on the ground running when it comes to when Tik Tok leaves or if it's going to stay. But I know for people like her that was hoping that this was a way out because a lot of people don't know that like some jobs have very toxic environments and sometimes for people that are neurodivergent, that's not always a safe thing because those are normal thinking. Feel like we have to process everything their way. And sometimes it's not like that. So now you found a space where you can actually be yourself and you don't have to worry about too much judgment. And now it's going away and you're freaking out because now you have to go back into the, the societal norm, if that makes any sense.

Sayen Gates:
It has affected my business because I don't get those messages anymore now that we know that TikTok is banned. And then also my follower count has decreased and it's like that is a drastic gap. I was like, I worked really hard to build my content and my platform, only for it to be decreased like that. That didn't feel great for me. So now I'm forced to be more aggressive in being on the ground with things or just posting stuff on Instagram and YouTube. And I right now my personal opinion is we're about to see a flood of ads on YouTube for businesses now that they can't sell their product on TikTok shop anymore because TikTok shop is not going to exist. I don't have TikTok on my phone anymore because I deleted it because I knew that I wouldn't use it, but I could still access it from my computer. But now the transition is trying to get all my videos of old and transfer it to another place, whether it be Instagram or.

Sayen Gates:
Now the thing is, Lemon 8. Lemon 8 was announced around the time that they were trying to figure out whether or not they were going to actually ban it or they were going to find another place to do it. The problem with that was that it says on the bottom of the app it says powered by TikTok. So I had two speculations. Either one, it's also going to be shut off by the law because it's attached to TikTok. Or two, we'll be fine and we'll have an extra platform. We don't have to go to Kick or anybody else. But that soon became a horror show because once I tried to go on Lemon 8, it wouldn't allow me to get on there either.

Sayen Gates:
So now you have to make a video. And I've seen many creators do that and they did it on Lemon 8. They would make videos saying, hey guys, it looks like they're finally shutting us down. So follow me on Lemon8, follow me on Instagram, follow me on YouTube. It's like now it's time for those other platforms to shine. Now because of the fact that TikTok is not going to be the center of the universe anymore. And when we found out that Lemonade is not opposed in this situation, then everybody's like, oh no, now we have to get all these platforms. We didn't really, we thought was low maintenance.

Sayen Gates:
And I'm just, I mean I've already had them since 2020. I'm. I'm not scrambling too much to do it now. Shifting some things maybe, yes, but that's. That, that has been a whole different thing. This, this ban has been very stressful.

Heidi Heitkamp:
You know, Joel, it just goes to show how complicated some issues really are. There are good arguments on both sides and that's why we need competent, clear headed leaders to make sense of all of this as we move forward in our country.

Joel Heitkamp:
You know, you said it. We just hope you understand the TikTok Ban issue a little bit better. Let us know what side you'd take or how you'd solve this. Email us at podcast@onecountryproject.org and let us know. That's podcast@onecountryproject.org and thanks always for joining.

Heidi Heitkamp:
Us on the Hot Dish. It's brought to you by One Country Project, which is making sure that the voices of the rest of us are heard in Washington. Learn more at onecountryproject.org that's where you can find more information about the work that we do at One Country. And we'll be back in two weeks with more Hot Dish Comfort food for Middle America.