One Country Project's Hot Dish

Heidi Heitkamp [00:00:04]:
Welcome to the Hot Dish, comfort food for rural America. I'm Heidi Heitkamp.

Joel Heitkamp [00:00:08]:
And I'm Joel Heitkamp. Today we're going to focus on something near and dear to my heart and Heidi's, and that's public lands.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:00:16]:
Yep, we are, because we're both supporters of public lands staying in the hands of the public. And we have a couple great guests to talk about it. Land Tawney and Aaron Murphy are here with us today. And, and they're co-founders of the American Hunters and Anglers Action Network, or as they call it, AHA. And they have a lot to say and they are doing a lot to protect our public lands. And so we wanted you to meet them. As most of you know, an earlier version of the Republicans Big Ugly Bill would have allowed millions of acres of public land to be sold that would have been devastating to rural communities, particularly in western usa.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:00:59]:
Those provisions didn't make it into the final bill thanks to public outcry, but that doesn't mean the threat is passed.

Joel Heitkamp [00:01:06]:
We know this is important to a lot of our listeners out there, so we brought in a couple of guys who are working every day to protect public lands. Land Tawney was born and raised in rural Montana and was CEO of the Montana-based Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. That's enough for me right there. Love it. Aaron Murphy was the Executive Director of Montana Conservation Voters and spent 13 years on Senator John Tester's staff as Press Secretary and Chief of Staff. You guys recently got together -

Heidi Heitkamp [00:01:42]:
What, that poor guy.

Joel Heitkamp [00:01:47]:
Yeah, working with John. You're on your own there.

Aaron Murphy [00:01:50]:
Yeah, I have lots of stories.

Joel Heitkamp [00:01:53]:
Yeah. These guys recently got together and started a new group, the American Hunter and Anglers Action Network, to defend our public lands. Land, Aaron, thanks for being here. Appreciate it, you guys.

Aaron Murphy [00:02:05]:
Well, thank you guys.

Land Tawney [00:02:06]:
Appreciate you having us on.

Joel Heitkamp [00:02:07]:
All right, why don't you get us up to speed? You know, we, Heidi mentioned the Big Ugly Bill and why it was ugly to a lot of guys like us who hunt and fish and, and love our public lands, but just - Land, I'm going to go to you first. Tell me why you think it is that they want to sell off our public land.

Land Tawney [00:02:25]:
I mean, they want to sell off our public lands to do two things. They either want to exploit it so they can make a bunch of money or they want to privatize it so they have their own playground. And so this is something that's been going on ever since, you know, Theodore Roosevelt really started our conservation, our public lands legacy that people want to take it away from us.

Joel Heitkamp [00:02:43]:
Okay. It didn't make it, Aaron, into the Big Ugly Bill in the end. Guys like you and others made a difference and didn't end up in there. So let me ask you this. Are they safe now? Are we done having to worry about this?

Aaron Murphy [00:02:59]:
No. The threat is graver than ever. And that is because Senator Mike Lee, who originally put that legislative text, tried to put it into the Bill, has promised that he wants to come back to it. And this is not just a one off thing for us. We call ourselves AHA, short for American Hunters and Anglers. But what we did is we joined a huge community of folks who were quite distressed about this plan, mostly because it was sloppy. Senator Lee wanted to sell off up to 3.3 million acres of Forest Service and BLM land. And that just sort of lit a fuse. And what we tried to do is just amplify that and really speak to a lot of people who care a lot more about public lands, hunting, fishing, access to them, than they care about partisan politics.

Aaron Murphy [00:03:46]:
So I think we hit a chord. But in terms of the threat, it is far from over. In fact, we think it's just beginning. We say that we are the front line in the war on public lands. And it's more evident than ever, especially after last election day.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:04:00]:
Years ago, there was a big movement again to sell private land. And I think a lot of the ranchers and farmers were all for it because boy, now I can buy that grazing land that I've been grazing. And then all of a sudden, people like Bill Gates, people like Ted Turner, what I used to tell our farmers and ranchers is I think, you think you can compete with billionaires for this land? And so let's put a fine point on it. It's not about, you know, kind of opening this up to the public. It's about giving it at bottom prices to billionaires who can afford to buy it. And it is, I mean, we have an income and wealth inequality and this is just part of that whole picture, I think, Aaron.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:04:41]:
And Mr., Mr. Land. I think that's such a great name by the way.

Land Tawney [00:04:46]:
Yeah, I didn't like it when I was, you know, younger, like in fourth grade, but now it kind of fits.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:04:52]:
But I mean, it really is about billionaires.

Joel Heitkamp [00:04:55]:
Land, is that where you see it? I mean, is this about the rich building their playgrounds? You mentioned it in your opening statement.

Land Tawney [00:05:02]:
Well, absolutely. And I think that, you know, our country is different than anywhere else in the world where we the people own 640 million acres. We have a gigantic kingdom that belongs to us. Many other countries, it's the royalty and the very few that own the land. And so, you know, I think Will Rogers said, 'buy more land because we're not making any more of it.' Well, this is our land that belongs to all of us. And I grew up here in Montana. I don't have a big ranch.

Land Tawney [00:05:29]:
But what I do have, I have all this public land. So that is my kingdom. And so there are others that want to have that for themselves. And so, you know, Aaron and I have, you know, been in Montana for a long time. I've traveled a lot around the West. There are example after example after example of local ranchers or local farms that have been bought up by those that are from out of state, usually that have way more money that I can even fathom in my lifetimes that are now buying these places as a second or third or fourth property. They are looking to build their kingdom to keep us riffraffs, us serfs out of that, that those areas.

Joel Heitkamp [00:06:04]:
So, Aaron, let me throw it to you this way. We have a lot of people that listen to the Hot Dish that don't agree with me, don't agree with Heidi on certain issues. Let me ask you this. Some of them listening right now are saying, why do we need a kingdom? Why do we need the United States to have a kingdom? Why do we need that much public land? What's your answer to them?

Aaron Murphy [00:06:27]:
My answer off the bat would be, it is part of our legacy as Americans. Right? I mean, I think a lot of us take for granted the fact that, again, as Land said, if you don't have access to your own private ranch, you have access to access to 640 million acres of public lands all over the country that you don't need any special permission to go in for the most part. I would also say that in terms of framing this to people, the way that certain politicians have decided to get at this is by trying to sell it through the lens of transferring management of these federal lands to individual states to manage, which I think sounds like a good idea on its face to a lot of people. But there are specific partisan party platforms that say, hey, the states should manage all of these hundreds and thousands of acres of federal forests. States can't afford to do that. They don't have the resources to, say, fight wildfires or to manage the land the way that the federal government does. And so what we are trying to do is tell a story that even that, even saying, hey, we should transfer the management of these federal lands to individual states. That is the first step towards selling those public lands off, not just to anybody, but like you said, to the people who can afford them, to the highest bidder.

Aaron Murphy [00:07:42]:
That means the billionaires. And when that happens, we are locked out. You can see it happening right now. We cannot access our own land. As soon as that happens, habitats are affected, wildlife is affected, recreation is affected. It impacts a multi-billion dollar, actually it's a $1.2 trillion outdoor recreation economy. All of that ties together.

Aaron Murphy [00:08:04]:
And so if people are thinking, ah, maybe that sounds like a good idea, we're here to say, hold on, they ain't making more of it. We have to protect this as part of our American legacy, our birthright.

Land Tawney [00:08:15]:
I agree with everything that Aaron just said. It's a place where I go with my family to hunt and fish. It's a place where I go pick huckleberries. And when I hunt and fish and I'm providing food for my family. It's a place that, you know, I go find solace. You know, remember, remember COVID, where you couldn't do anything but go outside and what that meant to all of us. So I think there's that piece. Aaron mentions the $1.2 trillion outdoor economy that is not only sustainable, but we can grow that economy. Then the last piece, I guess if none of those kind of like make your ears pick up a little bit, is that our public lands and public waters are essential to clean air and clean water for all Americans. And so when I think about, you know, 70% of our clean water starts on public lands, could you imagine if somebody else is owning those headwaters to our streams and our rivers and not just like a billionaire, but potentially a foreign-owned entity? And so to me, these are public resources that provide again, recreational opportunities, an economic economy that is actually amazing.

Land Tawney [00:09:14]:
And then also clean air and clean water.

Joel Heitkamp [00:09:16]:
Let me throw this at you guys. The image that administrations, even before this, that wanted to sell off our public lands presented to the public were images of lands that weren't being used. Lands that were out there, you know, on the edge of oil fields, talking about why in the world aren't we developing these? You know, the nation is short oil, gas prices are high. I'm going to go to you first with that one, Land. That, that strategy, the, the pro-gutting our public lands individuals use, how effective is it and how wrong is it?

Land Tawney [00:09:52]:
I mean, you talk about, you know, Theodore Roosevelt, which I'm sure you all are very steeped in, you know, North Dakota kind of lore. When he lost his mom and he lost his wife on the same day, like, they both died on the same day, he came to the lonely lands of North Dakota. He came there to find, like, solace. Right? And so how important, like, put a price tag on that, like these lonely lands that you're talking about. But I go back to the Big Beautiful Bill that Aaron was talking about earlier that was all about making money. And so this was not like these lonely lands that didn't have, like, very much, let's say, like, economic benefits. There were stuff that was close to national parks in particular.

Land Tawney [00:10:31]:
That is the, those are the highest value lands to the people. And those would have been lost. They would not been given to the, you know, the rank and file. Those would have gone to the billionaires. And so to me, then you talk about, like, kind of oil and gas. We need oil and gas development in this country. You've had a bunch go on there in North Dakota. There's places in Wyoming, my home state of Montana, that needs to be done in a sustainable fashion and so that you can develop those resources, then make sure that you go back and restore those resources and then move on.

Land Tawney [00:10:59]:
Right now, this idea of energy dominance, that means one person is winning and somebody else is losing. And I don't think that is beneficial to anybody besides the people that are making the money.

Joel Heitkamp [00:11:08]:
Aaron, I'm going to bring this to you. The ability for Donald Trump, the Administration, to be able to change a person's position, I don't know that it's done through passion or belief as much as it's done through idolization, but I'm going to throw this to you. The Secretary of the Interior right now was my Governor, and he's somebody I knew and know really well, but he's completely changed. So I don't know him. I mean, he was not for sale of public lands. In fact, he was an advocate for the very area that Land was just talking about, the badlands in North Dakota. So how do you fight that when basically you end up with a Secretary of Interior who sees his main job sucking up to a man that wants to sell the land?

Aaron Murphy [00:11:54]:
Yeah. And to be clear, we're talking about Doug Burgum just for folks who might be outside of North Dakota, but yes -

Joel Heitkamp [00:12:00]:
I didn't want to pick on Doug. I didn't want to say his name.

Aaron Murphy [00:12:03]:
But I'm happy to.

Joel Heitkamp [00:12:04]:
Yeah.

Aaron Murphy [00:12:05]:
So our issue with Secretary Bergam is, is several fold. And yes, if you look at his messaging right now, it's all focused on, quote, unquote, energy dominance. But he is also doing some what we think are pretty insidious things for public lands going back a couple of weeks to win the Big Beautiful Bill. And Senator Lee was trying to propose the sell off. He was supportive of that. And he was supportive of divesting some of the public lands as the solution to the housing crisis in this country, which we don't buy. I don't think that argument stands up whatsoever because the housing crisis is a much different set of issues. And we don't need to go and raid our forest service land as a solution for more suburbs.

Aaron Murphy [00:12:46]:
It's just a fact. Secondly, we noticed that he and the Secretary of Agriculture, a woman named Brooke Rollins, are sort of gearing up to go after very specific places like the Boundary Waters Canoe Wilderness area in northern Minnesota. They want to, by executive order, open the doors to allow a foreign-owned copper mine right at the headwaters of the Boundary Waters. That is something that he should be standing guard against and in fact is basically saying, look, foreign-owned copper mining is more important than this precious resource, which is 150 miles of pristine water and wilderness. So we are looking at why he's changed. I don't know. I didn't know Secretary Burgum as Governor, but I can tell you that I think he is, like many in this Administration, are just taking marching orders and rather than upholding the duty of being the Secretary of the Interior, just being a mouthpiece for a very specific slice of it. And that is hurting public land.

Aaron Murphy [00:13:49]:
So we are making sure, as in our role in our organization, that we are making sure everybody knows what's happening and saying it plainly and truthfully.

Joel Heitkamp [00:13:58]:
Heidi, I'm going to send this one to you. You worked with Mike Lee. You know Mike Lee. For all I know, you got Mike Lee's cell. So let me ask you this. What's motivating him here? I mean, what's driving him?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:14:11]:
I think Mike Lee is a traditional conservative who believes that government should just get out of the way, never have a regulation, and they shouldn't ever own land and it should all be in private ownership. Well, I mean, that's all fine and good until he runs into people who hunt and fish and who say, wait, wait, wait, you're taking something away from us. And I think he was shocked that he didn't get his way in the Big Beautiful Bill and that it didn't work out the way he thought it was gonna work out. And so I think he's working on what we call the workaround. And Donald Trump hasn't been shy about declaring stuff and trying to make it happen without legislation. And so I don't think anybody should right now assume anything other than there is going to be a plan to continue this going forward. Now, what Mike Lee will point out is that abandoned post office in downtown Salt Lake or, you know, some urban property that a federal building sits on that hasn't been alienated from GAO, the Government Accounting Office and the Government Services, GSA. And so, you know, those things need to be reviewed, why they are still standing empty.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:15:27]:
I get that. But when he's talking about we're going to go into Utah and basically sell all the public land, let me tell you, I've met very conservative people in Utah who realize that their bread and butter is in tourism. It's in, you know, being able to take people on bike trips, being able to take people snowshoeing, being able to take people out there cross country skiing. And they know that resource if it's done away with, that resource is a financial resource that will hurt them economically. I mean, Mike Lee is totally on the wrong side of this, but like everybody else, he's brazen because he's a Republican and thinks that no one will ever challenge him.

Joel Heitkamp [00:16:10]:
So, Land, let me throw this at you. Your group, the American Hunters and Anglers Action Network, has to be part of the solution of this in some ways, because I don't think people really understand where federal lands are. I don't think they know in my backyard here where Stack's Slough is and what it meant to me where I shot my first pheasant, where I shot a bunch of mallards and some honkers and everything else. Do you think your group and other groups like you have done a good job of making sure the general public knows what public land is and where it's at?

Land Tawney [00:16:48]:
It's a great question. I think that it's part of the fabric of life in the West, right? And I think that in North Dakota, you know, I think about the grasslands in particular, you know, I've hunted birds there a ton of the National Grasslands. And so I think hunters and anglers know about these places, Joel. I don't think they know the threats to them, though. And it's our job in particular at AHA or other places to let people know when these places are under threat. I think that hunters and anglers in general like to be by themselves and they like to be left alone.

Land Tawney [00:17:18]:
And so, you know, they don't know that Mike Lee is trying to steal this land from them unless we tell them. And so that is, I think, one of our main jobs at American Hunters and Anglers is to let the people know and then give them an avenue to talk about this and to push back. And I think that's what you saw when this was part of the Big Beautiful Bill. And why Mike Lee was so surprised is he kicked the hornet's nest. And once he kicked that hornet's nest, he started getting stung. And I think at first he started saying, 'oh, this is just a bunch of liberals that are being paid to do this.' He found out real quickly that it was not just Democrats, not just Republicans, but all of Americans that understand that public lands mean something to them. And once you're going to take it away, they're going to say, hell, no.

Land Tawney [00:18:00]:
And that's exactly what happened. And I think democracy still works in this country, and I think people forget that. And really what that means is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. And sometimes we've got to just, you know, we the people have to rise up and demand from our elected leaders what we want.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:18:16]:
So, Land, where, where could you see a map of public land? Do you guys post that? To Joel's point, you know, people don't know where they are. They don't know what they look like. I think if you showed pictures, and I had a friend once from Wyoming who said, you know, y' all think about the Tetons, or you think about, you know, Yellowstone, he goes, but there's parts of Wyoming that'll scare the hell out of you. And you know what? That's really awesome.

Land Tawney [00:18:40]:
That was one of the most powerful tools, I think, that happened during that fight, is the Wilderness Society came out with a map and just talked about the lands that were for sale, not just public lands in general, but the lands that were for sale. And when you look at a map and you see those things in your backyard and places that you did go shoot your first antelope or you did go shoot, you know, a bunch of honkers, those places mean something to people. And so I think those maps, we did not produce one ourselves, but the Wilderness Society did on what was for sale. And that became real really quickly. I think we talk a lot about how, you know, these public lands are kind of in the West. I'm going to Tennessee next week, and I've been doing a little bit of research. I mean, their public lands are much more finite over there, but they mean that much more to them. Right? They have less of them, and they mean even more.

Land Tawney [00:19:24]:
And so I think showing those maps in particular that you're asking about, Senator, are absolutely essential.

Joel Heitkamp [00:19:31]:
So, Aaron, I want to throw this one to you because your group, the American Hunters and Anglers Action Network, is, your job has to be to connect to somebody who's never held a Remington or a Winchester. I mean, never held a big ugly stick out fishing. You know what I'm getting at here? I mean, if you're going to win this and keep control of our, of our public lands, we're going to need that urban person. We're going to need that person. You know, Heidi mentioned, you know, different sports, biking, you know, trail, snowshoe, all of that. But you gotta get them, because if you don't get them, you're not gonna win this argument.

Aaron Murphy [00:20:10]:
Yeah, and I would say it's further than just urban versus rural, but I would say West versus the rest of the country. I think when you talk about public lands, a lot of people think, you know, the sprawling wilderness of Montana. And Senator, I happen to be a Wyomingite, so I know exactly what you're talking about. You know, lots of BLM land, for example. But what we wanna do is really make a connection between not just those lands, but also, say, reservoir where you go fishing in Arkansas, that's run by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Well, guess what? Because of DOGE and Elon Musk, hundreds if not thousands of those sites, we're talking fishing areas, we're talking campgrounds, picnic areas, reservoirs, dams, all of those have been shut down because of budget cuts.

Aaron Murphy [00:20:56]:
Those are public lands and water. So we're talking about them too. So we're not just talking to, or trying to talk to, you know, the, the trophy elk hunter in, in the wilds of Montana or the, the fly fishermen and, and the Tetons. We're also talking about the bass fisherman who lives for the weekend where he wants to crack open a beer and sit in a boat and pop a worm into the water. That person enjoys and is enriched by public lands and waters as much as everybody else. Now extend that even further. Say, for example, example, somebody who does live in a city, maybe they take their kids to a local park or swimming pool or even a tennis court. They might benefit from something called the Land and Water Conservation Fund.

Aaron Murphy [00:21:39]:
That is a federal fund that uses no taxpayer dollars and it essentially pays for those facilities and access and more public lands through offshore oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico. Something a lot of people don't really know, but even that is under attack. We were talking about Secretary Burgum, Secretary Burgum wants to raid that fund to pay for Park Service maintenance backlog, so fixing outhouses and whatnot. We think that is awful. It's a misdirection of priorities. And we want to center the conversation and basically let everybody know that they benefit from public lands and waters whether they know it or not, because they might not even realize that they do well.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:22:19]:
And I think a lot of people, Joel, go to the National Parks in the summer, and there are long lines. There is an incredible desire to go and see these natural places, to be able to kind of envision what it was like for the pioneers. And so this idea that they're underutilized, they're underutilized by the rich people because they don't own them, they're over prescribed, which means that there isn't enough land for the demand that we have for people who want that experience. And so we should be thinking about how we make public lands more accessible to more people, but, you know, which is affordable.

Joel Heitkamp [00:22:58]:
Go ahead, Land.

Land Tawney [00:22:59]:
I said this earlier, but I'm going to reiterate it. $1.2 trillion benefit to the economy that is sustainable. What other, like, like what other part of our economy is, like, we know is going to be $1.2 trillion at least? That's a huge benefit to all Americans. The second piece I would say is clean air and clean water. If you never step foot on public land, you got to go outside, you got to breathe air, and you got to drink clean, cold water. And so to me, these ecological services that our public lands provide for our entire country are essential to every single American.

Joel Heitkamp [00:23:32]:
Heidi, I'm going to throw this one to you, though. You mentioned earlier about, you know, whether or not Donald Trump cares, you know, in terms of following regulation and law.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:23:43]:
Did you ever think Donald Trump's been on a hike? I don't think the guy's ever been on hike. Yeah, I don't. I don't. I mean, this guy, this man of the people. Yeah, I bet you he wouldn't. He wouldn't know his way. I mean, it would be kind of fun. Point him in the direction and say, go out and shoot an elk and gut it where it's at and carry it in, you know, Mr. He-Man, macho, no way he's going to be able to do that!

Joel Heitkamp [00:24:05]:
It's a long walk from that golf cart to where you kick the golf ball. But let me ask you this. If we know that he doesn't adhere to the rule of law, that he doesn't do that, he doesn't care whether it's the rule of law or not. And in the end, he tends to win because he's got the right people in the court system that he wants. Isn't that a bigger threat than Mike Lee?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:24:32]:
Oh, I think right now it is. But you know, one thing that happened in the courts, you know, it used to be that if one district court issued a nationwide injunction, it was honored. Which is why, you know, whether you agreed with them or not, when Biden tried to do student loan reform or student loan reductions for people, he got stopped. And he got stopped by one district court when they were form shopping. Now, what we know is that you're gonna have to file in every district where public lands are or you're gonna have to file class action, which I hope these guys are organizing to try and stop it. Because look at the level of extortion. I mean, basically he knows he's got a deficit problem and so he's out extorting money from companies like Nvidia saying you gotta pay us 15% of what you sell into China. He's out, you know, doing tariffs.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:25:24]:
You know, when Mike Lee comes in and says, Mr. President, you could make $3 billion tomorrow, all you got to do is sell this little hunk of land in Montana or this hunk of land, you know, and we got buyers lined up, including some of your friends in Saudi Arabia. And you know, off, we're off to the races. And so we have to be prepared to tackle this legally too, Joel.

Joel Heitkamp [00:25:47]:
All right, Land, last comments from you.

Land Tawney [00:25:49]:
People's voices still matter. They may not think they do. We're against the biggest threats to this country and we're just talking about public lands, but I think it goes much larger than that. A lot of people don't know what to do. We all need to rise up and use our voices and make sure that democracy still works in this country. And that's the only thing that we have, and I have a lot of faith in the people. If we unite, we will get what we want.

Land Tawney [00:26:11]:
But if you sit on your hands, we are, no matter what, we're going to lose.

Joel Heitkamp [00:26:15]:
Aaron, last comments from you.

Aaron Murphy [00:26:18]:
I would ask folks to give us a follow on Instagram. We're @AmericanHuntersAnglers. You can find us there. And part of our strategy is to really use social media the best way we can. In fact, and Senator, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would argue that the old fashioned method of calling your lawmakers may not be as effective now as it used to be because they've gotten the memo, and they don't tend to answer phones anymore. But if you go on social media and if you find them on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and tag them and comment in the comments, that in our experience at least seems to be quite effective in moving the needle. We saw it happen with the attempt of Senator Lee to sell off public lands.

Aaron Murphy [00:26:59]:
We'll keep the gas on. And we want to make sure that people are following along because a lot of people are tuning out. We want to make sure people are tuning in because again, it is our very heritage at stake. And we want to make sure that every, everybody knows exactly what the threat is.

Joel Heitkamp [00:27:13]:
Well, keep the fight up, you guys. Keep it. You gotta win. So appreciate you guys coming on the Hot Dish.

Aaron Murphy [00:27:19]:
Appreciate you guys.

Land Tawney [00:27:20]:
Appreciate you having us on.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:27:27]:
Joel, my goodness, you had an exciting week. In fact, the whole family had an exciting week. It didn't quite turn out the way we wanted it to, but boy, was it exciting. But talk about your experience at the Little League World Series Regional, Midwest Regional.

Joel Heitkamp [00:27:43]:
Yeah, well, you know, Fargo, my grandson plays on the 12 and under team, the Fargo All Stars, and he was a center fielder. He runs. He's out there because he's as fast as what his grandpa was.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:27:57]:
That would not be true.

Joel Heitkamp [00:27:59]:
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Anyway, they came up short. On Wednesday they beat South Dakota, and on Friday they lost to South Dakota. Had they beat them, they'd be in Williamsburg, Pennsylvania. And so they were that close. They played on ESPN, which is what Heidi's getting at, where my whole family was glued to the TV. I was in Indiana at the game, watching my wife have a heart attack and trying to pretend it didn't matter to me. Heidi, how's that?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:28:29]:
And those of you who are out there know we talk about so many things and there's so many challenges, but somehow watching these 12 year old kids play baseball. Tune into ESPN, they're going to cover it. And it really is, it's a fun thing to watch. And I've actually watched the Little League before on ESPN and really enjoyed it. I enjoy it as much as I enjoy watching professional baseball because somehow it means more. It's got that "Sandlot" vibe.

Joel Heitkamp [00:28:59]:
Yeah, I've played a lot of sports in my life, but when you watch 12 year olds that close playing on ESPN, which to them is the religious network, but you, you watch how, how into it they are and how, you know, you lose that one big game after you beat that same team and you walk on that field thinking, we got these guys. You know, they're 12 year olds. I mean, some of these kids are, are six foot tall and some of these kids are under five foot tall and they're knocking heads and playing together. And it's what sport is all about. The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. But it teaches you a lot of things. For my grandson's case, my other son in law, not his father, said it best when he said, 'I just hope this isn't the highlight of Reed's life already at 12 years old,' Heidi.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:29:49]:
Well, congratulations, Joel. It was so much fun for all of us. But let's turn to the real world that we live in. And the crops look great. I mean, actually we have a very good friend, happens to be related to our sister in a weird way. When I asked him, you know, he's always like, I don't know, you know, when you ask him how the crops are. And this time he went, they're looking really good. So there are lots of, lots of crops out there, lots of good looking crops.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:30:17]:
I just got a text from another guy that we know in Jamestown, had a beautiful sunflower field leveled, Joel, by the weather. And so these farmers have so much stress in their life just praying for rain or praying that'll quit raining, you know, praying that they don't get hailed out. And now they have the additional stress of the ag markets and this is devastating that, you know, we grow more in this country than we can actually consume. And so we need that export market on the margins and it's gone. So what are you hearing from the farmers that you talk to every day, Joel?

Joel Heitkamp [00:30:51]:
You know, I think it's starting to catch up a little bit in this sense that, you know, some of them are hanging onto equipment for a year longer than what they normally would. A lot of equipment in my neck of the woods comes down from Canada. Some of that specialized equipment, you know, not the type of stuff you buy from John Deere, Case IH, that type of thing. I'm not talking about tractors and combines, I'm talking about diggers, I'm talking about seeders, I'm talking about things like that. And so, you know, they had things scheduled, but then they look at the tariffs and they're saying, well, maybe I can wait a year here, maybe I can do this or that. All of that is one thing. You know, it's, it's, to them, it's a business practice and it's about depreciation. What matters to them the most is that China's not buying.

Joel Heitkamp [00:31:39]:
There's no containers going. And in fact, they're paying over a buck more for a bushel of soybeans than what we would charge them. And that's how ticked China is and how much they want to expand into Brazil and Argentina. And Heidi, I don't know about you, but the farmers I'm talking to are starting to get that, that long term this is going to be a major problem, especially with soybeans.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:32:04]:
Well, you know, we went through this during the first term with the farm economy being ground zero for the injury that tariffs would bring. And, you know, there was the assistance, right? But there's a whole lot of other people are getting hurt by these tariffs, businesses that are getting hurt. And as we see now inflation ticking up, and as we see those inventories, when everybody bought up a lot, you know, to avoid the tariffs, now you can't do that. Everybody kind of waited to see if they're going to pass prices along. Now you can't wait and see because you got to operate on your margins. So, I mean, I think that we're going to start seeing the consequences of these tariffs very soon.

Joel Heitkamp [00:32:45]:
Yeah. And the other thing that we see all over the country, it isn't just here in the upper Midwest, but all over that, that One Country Hot Dish neck of the woods, is the fact that elevators aren't buying. There's nobody saying, okay, you know, I got space for you because they don't have space for you, and they don't want to put it on the ground because then they lose some of what they put on the ground. And so a lot of these farmers are looking at how much bend space they have, looking at crop that they haven't sold yet, and they're sitting there going, what the heck? I mean, I'm going to end up with more crop than what I can do. As you pointed out, the yields look pretty good in some of these areas. I'm going to end up with more crop than I know how to get rid of before I can sell. And that's a major issue, Hyde.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:33:33]:
Well, I just suggest that, you know, one of the things that we do here at the Hot Dish is we talk about agriculture because that's a big component of the rural economy. And this is one of those places where the economy is not going well and we'll see what happens come harvest. But my prediction, Joel, is we're going to see a lot of those white sacks that we've seen in the past, those long - if you drive through rural America and you see a big, long, white snake, that's stored grain. And that stored grain isn't, I mean, that's not, not a condition you want to store it in permanently. And so this is, you lose a lot of value putting it on the ground. You lose a lot of value putting it in a sack.

Joel Heitkamp [00:34:13]:
Yeah. And my prediction is this, that the federal government under the Trump Administration, which is so incredibly conscious of debt - not! - is going to use this as an opportunity in those Red state areas where they want to continue to have that level of support, and they're going to use the word disaster, even though yields are going to be unbelievable in a lot of those areas, and they're going to use the word disaster to send disaster payments. And so the ag producers out there aren't going to want me to say this word, but in many ways, the federal government is going to have to subsidize them rather than allow what was the free market, which was working pretty doggone good when it came to sales of soybeans, for example.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:34:59]:
Well, and, you know, if you're somebody who's making parts for the supply chain and your aluminum price just went up 40-50%, your steel price just went up 40-50%, and you're trying to compete with people who can buy their steel and aluminum much cheaper, you might argue you're going to give relief to farmers, you ought to be giving me some relief because of this. And so, you know, it's going to be, it's going to be interesting. And I always laugh, you know, Joel, you know, I do this, you know, when people say, 'oh, see, it's working, you know, blah, blah, blah.' And you want to say, 'well, then you don't need anything. You don't need any, you know, you don't need any bailout,' which is what I call it. Anyway, Joel, we will talk more about what's happening with the agricultural economy as we get closer to harvest, but I just thought we should kind of raise it. And we should say: way to go, Fargo.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:35:49]:
We're really all proud of you, and I'm sorry everybody else that we beat, but it was really fun watching those little guys, you know, performed so well. And I was amazed by the pitching, by the way. Learning more about how conservationists are fighting for public land was really inspiring. If there's something else we need to talk about, please let us know.

Joel Heitkamp [00:36:11]:
You know what, email us your thoughts. Our email address is podcast@onecountryproject.org. That's podcast@onecountryproject.org. And to keep up with everything One Country is doing, be sure to follow us on Bluesky and Substack.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:36:30]:
And thanks for joining us today on the Hot Dish, which is brought to you by One Country Project, making sure the voices of the rest of us are heard in Washington. Learn more at onecountryproject.org. And we will be back in two weeks with more Hot Dish, comfort food for rural America.