One Country Project's Hot Dish

Heidi (00:04):
Welcome to the Hot Dish, comfort food for Middle America. I'm Heidi Heitkamp, and this is a very special episode of our podcast. Before we get started, we want to thank all of our listeners for your continued support. We love hearing from you, and so please keep those questions and suggestions coming. We're always excited to hear who you want to see or hear on the show and what topics matter most to you. Reach out to us via email at podcast@onecountryproject.org, and make sure to check out onecountryproject.org for more updates on what we're doing to lift up rural voices in Washington, DC.

(00:48):
Joel and I were able to speak with two very special guests individually. I'm thrilled to be joined by my dear friend, former Senator Claire McCaskill, of the great state of Missouri. She is a great friend and a very, very smart political operative. We are discussing the current political landscape with a focus on what each presidential candidate is really offering rural voters, especially those being deeply affected by the overturning of Roe v. Wade. But first, Joel will be speaking with comedian and co-host of the popular podcast, The Liberal Redneck, Trae Crowder, about his take on JD Vance's candidacy and the GOP's broken promises to rural America. And they're going to be talking about what needs to change for these communities to feel truly supported. So let's get started with Joel and Trae's conversation.

Joel (01:52):
I have to tell you, it's really good to have the conversation I'm about to have with Trae Crowder. I'm just thrilled to meet him. Trae Crowder, welcome to the Hot Dish. Good to have you with us.

Trae Crowder (02:02):
Hey, Joel. Yeah, glad to be here. As a Southerner, I didn't find out about Hot Dish until probably into my 20s, but I became an immediate fan. I love what y'all have done with tater tots up there. It's some exciting stuff. I definitely co-sign on is all I'm saying.

Joel (02:18):
Yeah, we had a fundraiser for my much older sister Heidi one time, and it was called Hot Dish Fundraiser, and Garrison Keillor was there, and there must have been over 40 hot dishes that came to the VFW Hall just to help raise a couple bucks. I got to tell you, out of the 40, almost 20 of them were good, Trae. It was touch and go.

Trae Crowder (02:41):
Really? Okay. That's not too bad of a ratio.

Joel (02:44):
Yeah, it's not.

Trae Crowder (02:45):
I saw that Tim Walz won a Hot Dish contest a couple of times, like a Congressional Hot Dish contest or whatever, and I was like, man, this guy just checks all the Midwestern boxes. He's a true champ up there.

Joel (02:56):
He really does. I suppose I should learn to say X, but I'm not going to. So I've been following you on Twitter and it's easy to see what your thoughts are on Tim. I've gotten to know the governor a little bit, had him on my show a number of times, and when you talked about dealing with bullies and nobody's more ready for that than a school teacher, we just started laughing in my office and saying, "You know what? He's spot on."

Trae Crowder (03:20):
Well, I appreciate it. I made a couple of lighthearted, good-natured ribs about the Midwestern nature of Tim Walz, I'm not just saying this, those were all things that I was just basing on stereotypes or whatever. I made the joke about tractors and about tater tots and about the state fair or whatever, and then later I read more about Tim Walz, it's like he's into every one of those things in truth. So I ended up feeling like I had nailed it too actually, and I don't always feel like that, by the way, with those. But yeah, with that one I was like, "Oh man, I really was spot on with this one." But yeah, no, I love the guy. I'm very excited.

Joel (03:57):
That's part of what I saw when I started watching and following you was that you're not worried a bit about talking about the cultural divide, the politics that divide the south to the north. How do you see that playing out in this election?

Trae Crowder (04:10):
I thought for a while now that this election is going to go one of two ways. You'd like to think that it can be one of two ways is it's a final shooting down, a final turning away of what MAGA has corrupted American conservatism into, in my opinion, and a repudiation of that and saying, "Look, that's not a winning proposition. That's not going to work. You all need to get your stuff back together and become somewhat reasonable again, and then we can all move forward in this country as one," as we used to pretend that things were in a pre-Trump world. Or, if Trump wins, then who knows? Everything's going to be on fire, and that'll be the last election we've ever had and the descent into autocratic fascist lunacy.

(04:51):
I don't know. But yeah, I've been feeling much more optimistic generally lately after all the shifts at the top of the Democratic ticket recently and then Tim Walz coming out and whatnot. So I think that the culture war and the divide is going to be a massive part of it, but I want to believe that, one way or another, that past this election, maybe we can start to heal some of those wounds maybe, but I guess we'll all find out.

Joel (05:16):
As a talk show host that borders Minnesota and North Dakota, I am right on the border, so I get a little taste of both people from a blue state, people from a red state. I can vouch for the factors and energy there really is with this Harris Walz campaign. It's completely changed things and I applaud President Biden for stepping aside. So we have that opportunity, but I don't know how you could pick someone better than Tim Walz. You think about JD Vance and you think about Tim Walz and which one would you rather hang around?

Trae Crowder (05:47):
Yeah, that was another thing that I said in that video I made about Walz is cracking me up thinking about all the alpha male proud boy type dudes currently, they're having to try to talk themselves into believing that JD is the actual real man of the two between him and Tim Walz, this army vet, football coach, tractor fixing, yard mowing, Midwestern dad, and then JD is out here wearing eyeliner and having relations with couches and stuff and not knowing how to talk to anybody or about anything. And they got to act, "Oh yeah, that guy, he's macho, that's what a real man is." Like Tim Walz is like the opposite of toxic masculinity.

Joel (06:24):
Yep.

Trae Crowder (06:24):
He's the other end of that spectrum in the best way, and so he makes a perfect foil to JD Vance. I don't know if they picked JD because at the time they thought they had it in the bag so much that it didn't matter, and he was like Don Jr.'s coke buddy or what it was, or Peter Thiel just wrote a big enough check to get him the job. I don't know but I feel like they had to have been having some buyer's remorse in the intervening weeks. I don't think they're overly happy with it because he's definitely not crushing it, Mr. Vance.

Joel (06:52):
See, I think you're right about the fact that buyer's remorse, but they thought they had it won. That's my take on it. And because they thought they had it won, they thought they were going to keep MAGA alive after the Donald leaves, and they thought JD Vance would do that. And, of course, you got to win the race first.

(07:09):
Have you ever seen somebody pouting so bad that he doesn't get to run against someone and actually has to run against Vice President Harris?

Trae Crowder (07:18):
Right. I mean, I feel like that kind of tells you all you need to know, the fact that it was a good decision and that it bodes well if you are on the lift, if you are blue, if you're a Democrat, whatever, then it bodes well for you the way that they've reacted to it because, yes, he wouldn't be doing that, flailing like he is and also trying to manifest his own reality where Joe Biden somehow becomes the candidate again. Like Trump's sitting on the toilet on Truth social, just trying to conjure up this world he would prefer to live in, and he wouldn't be doing all of that if he wasn't worried about their prospects in this new dynamic of this election that they're all having to deal with.

Joel (07:53):
I have to ask you this. As somebody who grabs a microphone, you stand up in front of people and that's about as raw as you can get. You either make them laugh or you're in trouble. And Donald Trump for years stood up there with that microphone. He had 15,000 people in an arena screaming they love him, but he was known. Donald Trump was known before The Apprentice, but The Apprentice made him a star. A lot of Americans who maybe didn't know him knew him because of The Apprentice, and then you add ratings into it, sure, things are good, but then they turn to shit. And so the next thing, Donald Trump gets canceled because of ratings. When he looks at Kamala Harris's crowd, he thinks he's losing his ratings, that he's no longer the one, and there's some Trump fatigue out there, and I'd love to get your take on that.

Trae Crowder (08:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. The whole thing with MAGA and Trump, him, the movement, the base, all of them seem to be just generally, across the board, less energetic than they were, especially in 2016. In 2016, I still was sitting there at the time in denial. I was saying all the time, "This is more of a real thing than a lot of people on the coast are acknowledging right now. But still, surely, at the end of the day, we can hold this off." And then that didn't happen. But 2024 compared to then, both, like I said, with Trump himself and the movement around him and the people that are on board with him still, it just doesn't feel the same. You still see Trump flags and things like that. I still think a whole lot of those people are going to probably vote for Trump, but they're not making it their whole personality anymore.

(09:27):
I'm ashamed to say I get on Reddit quite a bit. I just lurk. I just read things, just keeping my finger on the pulse of the internet, that's all I'm doing. But I get on the conservative subreddit sometimes to see what conservatives on Reddit are saying and doing, and I see the sentiment expressed all the time that they're mad that they feel like they're losing now because they feel if Trump could just, quote, "keep his mouth shut," that they should have this in the bag. They're still going to vote for him. They're hardcore conservative but I see them lamenting his Trumpier qualities now. They're like, "This guy just can't get his foot out of his mouth. He can't get out of his own way," that type of thing instead of just pumping him up. It's like they're annoyed that he's making it harder on them than they feel it should be, and that's definitely not how it felt in the preceding election.

(10:12):
So yeah, something is different. But yeah, Trump, he's old. He's barely younger than Biden and he's barely campaigning right now. He wanted JD to be a surrogate. That's obviously not working. He sounded like Sylvester the cat in that interview he did on Twitter/X with Elon Musk, and he's just hunched over a phone with shoulder pads and a hang dog expression and just rambling through these things that he puts on repeat in his head, I guess. And he seems pretty far from inspiring to me but, of course, again, I am biased, but it definitely feels different.

Joel (10:45):
The goal of One Country and us here at the Hot Dish is really to have conversations about the rural. It's a long way from Celina, Tennessee to Mantador, North Dakota, but we still got the same thing. We know everybody in our town pretty much. So how do you think this plays out with the rural? Do you think that we ever in the rural area go back to more of a bipartisan approach to how we vote?

Trae Crowder (11:11):
Again, I'd like to think so. I would like to believe that a guy like Tim Walz is exactly the type of person who could make that happen, who could achieve that shift back because I feel like he can talk about things, because a lot of progressive policies help rural people, help small town people, just help people in general. But a lot of these people in towns like mine, when they hear progressive, they don't think about any of that. They just think about purple headed weirdos who want kids to use litter boxes at public schools. And Tim Walz is just the antithesis of all that.

(11:41):
So I think he's representative of the type of conversation, hopefully, we could start to have on the left in an effort to reach these people once Donald Trump has proven himself fully non-viable, right? That's what I hope happens. Because it's either that or they just dig their heels even further in on the MAGA thing, even without Trump, and they find a suitable replacement. But I don't know how you're going to do that. He seems to be one of one to me.

Joel (12:03):
I think about it in terms of, okay, I'm a former state senator, and so for 14 years we were there solving problems in my district, and you've heard about it, the skid steer that we call Bobcat. It's one of many skid steers, I get it, but we make that here. That's what we make. And there's a lot of union boys, men and women up here, and I tell you, they had problems. They had problems with workers' comp, they had problems with paid family leave. They had problems with health insurance. They had problems with somebody walking up to them on a Friday when their niece was getting married on Saturday and being told, "You have to work."

Trae Crowder (12:37):
Right.

Joel (12:37):
We solved a lot of that. We fixed it in the legislature, we fixed it nationally, and many of those guys now, it's just gays, guns and God. And I don't know how we go back to a conversation about issues that are true.

Trae Crowder (12:53):
No, I'm with you. I first went viral in 2016 during the rise of Trump to begin with, and people have been asking me ever since, "How do we reach these people?" It's a tough question because I agree with everything you just said. Those are the types of things that Democrats can do for these people in these places that would actually make their lives better. But you just can't make them care about anything other than, like you say, gays, guns and God. And also the border, the immigrants, that whole thing. I actually live in Southern California now, and they think that it's just this dystopian hellscape that's been overrun by these violent drug dealing migrants who are just roaming the streets and raping and pillaging and all this stuff. And no, dude, I live in a Norman Rockwell neighborhood in the San Fernando Valley. I literally don't ever see any of that ever living in Southern California. It hasn't impacted my life at all. But they think that it's becoming Mad Max out here or something.

(13:48):
And when they believe that and they think that also progressives want to turn everybody gay or force your kid to change genders and all this insane stuff that just isn't even happening, but they believe it all to be true, I don't know how you penetrate that either. That's why I have to cut off the head of the dragon type of thing when it comes to Trump. Maybe the MAGA movement in general won't be viable once he's finally out of the picture because the idea that he is irreplaceable, I'd like to think. So I don't know. I guess we'll see.

Joel (14:20):
I go back to your point about illegal immigration. I always on my radio show challenge people when they call in and they talk about all the people that are coming are from mental hospitals and they're dealing drugs and all this kind of crap. And I always say the same thing to them. When's the last time, if it's over 10 million people, that you've seen an employer arrested?" These people are working. They're working in a subculture. I can tell you where some of them are working because they're here in my backyard, but you don't see the employers get arrested if it's that bad. We're so desperate for workers in the rural area. I don't know what it's like where you're from, Trae, but if you came and asked for a job tomorrow, we wouldn't ask you your qualifications. We'd just hire you.

Trae Crowder (15:04):
Yeah. Well, I remember this was years ago now, I can't remember how many years ago. I think this was pre-Trump. I'm from Tennessee. I remember one time Alabama passed these really strict new immigration laws that forced a lot of migrant workers out of the state of Alabama. And then that year at harvest time, all their crops failed basically. And it had a massive negative impact on their economy as a state and kind of brought them to their knees for a minute because they couldn't get anyone else to work some of these jobs considering what the pay is.

(15:34):
Like Trump, there's no telling how many illegal immigrants he's paid or maybe stiffed, refused to pay, knowing him, over the years at his various job sites and stuff. And they all do it, but it's just an easy crux, like a nice wedge issue they can use to keep their people in line because that's mostly how they operate is through fear and rage.

Joel (15:57):
Folks, you owe it to yourself to find his work. The Liberal Redneck Manifesto: Draggin' Dixie Outta the Dark around here and over yonder. Trae, you have to keep doing what you're doing. The world needs more of it. They need to smile more. And it's tough to hate somebody in a room that's laughing with you. It really is.

Trae Crowder (16:16):
Amen, brother. And I'm definitely going to tend to keep at it because the world needs to smile more, but also I got a mortgage and stuff. So yeah, I'm not going to go back to my old job. I'm going to keep mining these jokes, trying to, but yeah, thank you.

Joel (16:29):
Trae, it's been a pleasure speaking with you today. I want to thank you so much for joining us on the Hot Dish.

Trae Crowder (16:34):
Likewise. Thank you, Joel. See you.

Joel (16:36):
You bet. You be good.

Heidi (16:43):
I am so excited today because you'll get to hear from one of the best political minds in the entire country. I usually introduce her as one of my great friends, someone that I met years ago, actually right after she ran for governor of Missouri. I like to tell people, "If the Democratic Party would just listen to the advice of Claire McCaskill, they'd have 60 senators, a majority, and the presidency."

Claire McCaskill (17:08):
Yeah. We are the two most brilliant political minds who lost our elections.

Heidi (17:15):
Hey, listen, the fact that we represented states like North Dakota and Missouri and you were able to hang on for 16 years or 12 years, and I was able to hang on for six, I think that qualifies us, Claire.

Claire McCaskill (17:27):
Well, it makes us better than sliced bread.

Heidi (17:30):
So let's talk. You and I both served with Kamala. When Trump kept saying she's not very bright, I kept thinking he doesn't know her. She's an exceptional talent both politically and substantively. This debate was hers to lose, and she hit the ball out of the park, in my opinion. What do you think?

Claire McCaskill (17:49):
Yeah, typically, you don't like to go into a debate where your performance is being overestimated and the opponent's performance is being underestimated. But, in this instance, she rose even above the fact that I think people assumed she was going to be a better debater. She is benefiting from being underestimated generally. This notion that took hold in Washington and among the chattering class that somehow she sucked and she couldn't win and she wasn't going to be a good candidate. "No, we had to do something if Biden wasn't the nominee because it couldn't be Kamala."

(18:24):
And I kept saying, "You guys, you haven't seen her." And I think people didn't understand what she had to overcome to get to the United States Senate. I mean, in California, their primaries are tough as nails. It's like a country, right? It's bigger than our states combined times 20. And so many talented Democrats want to be the DA of San Francisco and want to be Attorney General of California and want to be United States Senator from California. So the fact that she rose up in California politics to get to that pinnacle that most Democrats that are politicians in California want, which is United States Senator, should have been a signal to folks that she was going to be better at this than they realized. And, boy, she sure has been.

Heidi (19:14):
For people who were on the fence and legitimately undecided, I think for people who couldn't see her in the Oval Office negotiating something with a major leader, I think she answered that question. I think she answered the question that she has real game. She's going to be perfectly able to deal with our allies at NATO and our enemies in China and Russia. The question that she probably didn't answer it, she really needs to deal with the economic issues a little bit better. And it can't just be, "I've got this plan and that plan." So if you were giving her advice on dealing with the economy, which I think right now is probably the toughest spot that she's in, what would you tell her?

Claire McCaskill (19:56):
I would tell her she's got to put more meat on the bone, that the phrase, "opportunity economy," is not going to be enough. I think she's got a good start with the housing plan. I think she was smart to pivot to small businesses. I think the gouging on grocery prices is also good, but I really think what she needs to do ... We do contrast ads. I think she needs to put some serious dollars behind a contrast ad, particularly digitally, not necessarily on the old school TV but a contrast ad with what was going on at the end of Trump's term versus what is going on now so people see clearly side by side that they have been the job creators.

(20:43):
There has been record stock market 401k progress under them, that they have tamed inflation, not solved it, but tamed it in a way that it is no longer going up and it's going the right direction. They need to be honest about that. They can't say, "Oh, prices are great," because we all know they are. But I think people have forgotten how bad it was at the end of his term and how much work they had to do. And I think if they did a really clear contrast ad, "Before you think you want to go back, let's remind you of actually what happened."

Heidi (21:19):
Trump every day is saying the economy was great. I literally showed the Democratic Party where the economy wasn't great. He did not grow the GDP. He was driving up debt and deficit. He was doing all these things. And the answer from the Democratic Party is, "Well, we can't convince people that's true because he's been convincing him otherwise." And I said, "Then you're going to create a monster because this guy is not an economic genius." So I think for swing voters, I will tell you Republicans who don't like Trump in my state, debt and deficit is a major issue.

Claire McCaskill (21:52):
I agree.

Heidi (21:53):
And I think she could tell a great story on debt and deficit and make a commitment to do something about it.

Claire McCaskill (21:59):
And it wouldn't be a bad idea, besides debt and deficit, to also ... Nobody really in America, I mean there's probably maybe, what, 2 or 3% of America that understand what tariffs are and how they work, including Donald Trump, he doesn't understand them and know how they work-

Heidi (22:14):
He's never understood. Claire, when we were there, we fought all this. Just like, "This is crazy. This is a tax on middle class."

Claire McCaskill (22:23):
I was like, "What the hell?" All it is is a cost that's passed on to the American consumer. Period. I mean, he said, "Oh, it's going to bring in billions." I looked it up, Heidi, and in 2022, the tariffs he put in place brought in 2% of the United States revenue. I don't think 2% is going to pay for childcare, erase the deficit. I mean, there's just no way. Even if he raises in multiples, which he's talking about doing and putting that on everything, it just means we're going to have runaway inflation. It's hard because you want to keep things simple, you only have 50 some days, right?

Heidi (22:59):
Right. She could take conservative economists and people like Pat Toomey who actually partnered with me when we were trying to get Trump's tariffs rolled back-

Claire McCaskill (23:08):
Right.

Heidi (23:08):
... take some of the old statements that they had, and then the pundits saying, "This is paid for by China." That is a ridiculous thing to say. It's ridiculous. And even if we reduce the imports, that's going to drive up domestic prices, and that's a populist idea. Guess what? We tried this in the '20s to protect farmers and, because Congress was so irresponsible, we took the power away from them and gave it directly to the President which now, because we have an irresponsible person running for president, we need to take back.

Claire McCaskill (23:40):
And by the way, Toomey, did you see where Toomey came out and said he's not going to vote for him?

Heidi (23:44):
Yeah.

Claire McCaskill (23:44):
Another Republican.

Heidi (23:46):
But they refuse to say they'll vote for her, but-

Claire McCaskill (23:48):
That's okay.

Heidi (23:49):
Yeah.

Claire McCaskill (23:50):
It still matters even if they're not saying we're going to vote for her. I mean, I think what Liz Cheney did is great because she said, "Just not voting is not good enough. You need to vote against him for her." But it still helps to have Republicans, particularly respected Republicans in more conservative circles, which Pat Toomey is.

Heidi (24:10):
Let's move away and then talk about an issue that I think still has power, and that is the issue of reproductive rights.

(24:18):
It's interesting, Claire. I was on with somebody and I basically said, The reversal of Roe v. Wade basically cost the Republicans the midterm, cost them special elections and might well cost them this election." And the person said, "Oh, that's not true," blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, "Yeah, you can keep telling yourself that because you want to believe that the majority of people in this country take a so-called pro-life position, but that's not true."

(24:43):
So I want to talk about your state because I find it fascinating that all of these conservative politicians want to protect people from themselves. And by that, I mean you have an initiative that is on the ballot on reproductive rights, but yet, the insiders, the Republican elite, is trying to do everything that they can to keep it off the ballot because they don't trust their power of their persuasion, I guess, and they don't trust the voters of Missouri. So tell us a little bit about what's going on in Missouri.

Claire McCaskill (25:14):
Well, Missouri has a ban. It's not six weeks. It's from conception. We're a personhood state. The same law's in place that the Alabama Supreme Court found would violate a couple's ability to do IVF because if an egg is fertilized, it is actionable against anyone who destroys that egg, including in an IVF process. Now, the Republicans in Missouri try to say That's not true. Our law is very, very extreme.

Heidi (25:41):
So can I just interrupt for a minute? What the Alabama court did, everybody said, "Oh, they're off the rails," it was completely consistent with the law.

Claire McCaskill (25:49):
Yeah, and the same decision could be had here based on what the law is in Missouri. So we would be the first state to reverse a complete ban. Others have enshrined the right but not reversed a complete ban. The group that has been in here working on it, and the people here in Missouri that have been working on it, they've been very organized. They've been very diligent but the other side's done everything they can to stop, everything they can.

(26:15):
Then at the 11th hour, this lower court judge by the name of Limbaugh ... Sound familiar?

Heidi (26:21):
Yep.

Claire McCaskill (26:22):
He's from here. It's his family. It's Rush Limbaugh's cousin, decided that he wanted to get Leo Leonard's attention, and he threw it off the ballot on a really specious reasoning that didn't make sense based on the precedents in the state on initiative petitions. That was taken to the Supreme Court, and they put it back on the ballot. So it will be on the ballot. And there are millions of dollars that have been contributed to try to get it passed. And I'm very hopeful. The last polling said 52 yes and we only have to have a majority. And that was after hearing all the arguments they're going to throw up. They're going to say we're going to kill babies after they're born, but it's not. It's viability, very similar to Roe. It's the same reasoning of Roe that you have the freedom to make your own decisions before the viability of the fetus.

Heidi (27:13):
And that's something that people don't really talk about when you say, "I'm for reinstating Roe." They don't realize that under Roe, there was an ability of the states to weigh in at a certain point. I think it's just such an emotional issue. You can't get people to listen. Let's just admit, Missouri's probably not going to vote for Kamala, right?

Claire McCaskill (27:31):
Correct.

Heidi (27:32):
But people are going to cross over and vote yes for this constitutional measure that would reverse your ban. But let's talk about the states where it is on the ballot, in Florida, in Arizona. And so when you look at these, how do you see these ballot measures playing a role, Claire, in a democratic presidential victory in swing states?

Claire McCaskill (27:55):
I don't think there's any question it can be determinative in a close state. In states that [inaudible 00:28:00] close, it's on the ballot in Florida, and I think it's possible Rick Scott could get beat because of it.

Heidi (28:05):
And the Florida law is so draconian. It's six weeks.

Claire McCaskill (28:09):
It's six weeks.

Heidi (28:10):
Even Trump says that's not enough time.

Claire McCaskill (28:12):
It's not enough.

Heidi (28:14):
Yeah. Can I just say my favorite line of his is he's for fertilization?

Claire McCaskill (28:19):
No, he's, "I've always been big for fertilization." It's like, "Oh my God. Are we talking about nitrogens?"

Heidi (28:25):
Yeah. We could tell by the numerous affairs you've had.

Claire McCaskill (28:29):
Lord, it's like unbelievable. But I do think in places like Arizona and Nevada, it could be the difference, and I think they know that. And I think that's why he's flip-flopping all over the place on it. And as he does that, he's freaking out his base that thinks he's their guy. Here's the dirty little secret. He's not that smart.

Heidi (28:49):
He never has been, though.

Claire McCaskill (28:50):
Never has been.

Heidi (28:51):
He's the carnival barker. He's the guy who could get you to buy the snake oil, but after a while you take the snake oil and it's not working, he's long left town. But the Republicans keep endorsing him.

(29:04):
So, Claire, I want to talk just a little bit about the sycophant, the people who know better but continue to enable. And the thing that I find fascinating is this story about eating dogs. Now you've got all of these people who are the sycophants who are working overtime to prove him right just because that's what Trump needs. That's what his ego needs. His ego needs to be right.

Claire McCaskill (29:30):
I was thinking during the debate, I'd love to be watching Steve Schwarzman, the head of BlackRock, Blackstone, whatever it is, that big behemoth financial company. I'd love to be watching Nikki Haley. I'd like to be watching Mitch McConnell's face during that debate because that's who they signed up for. You think about the established, strong business people in this country that are giving him hundreds of thousands of dollars. Elon Musk's a weirdo and RFK is crazy and so I get it all those guys being for him. But some of the others, you got to wonder what they're thinking.

(30:02):
And listen, the dog thing is a great example of him hanging out in the dark corners of the internet. Trump is hanging out where he's getting the most adoration, and he's getting the most adoration in the dark corners of the internet, on his Truth Social or whatever it is. And that's where he's getting his love and he needs the love. He needs it just like you and I need oxygen. So he's repeating this stuff. And the sad thing is it's funny, it makes him small and stupid, but it's also racist. It's really ugly. And I think about those Haitians that are here legally, Heidi. That community in Springfield, Ohio, they have legal status and they are working hard every day. What are they telling their children? When they go to work with their colleagues, how do they feel when they walk in and they know everybody's looking at them and going, "Well, do you?" And it's really sad. It's just an underbelly of America that he is showing off to the world, and it makes me sick to my stomach.

Heidi (31:08):
And I have to say, you and I read the stuff in the dark edges and figure how do people believe this but I think sometimes it's like my sister who did child protection work, Claire, she used to come over because we would have these Sunday brunches where we would invite all the families of the interns and the residents. We would do big Sunday brunches and she would just sit in the corner and she'd say, "I forget that there are really good people and good parents in the world because this is the world I live in."

(31:38):
And I think that's what's happened to Trump. He just sits in those dark spaces and thinks the whole world is horrible. And one thing she's done is tried to expose our better angels in America. Say, "Look, do we have problems? Yeah. But are we functionally good people who are going to work every day and taking care of the neighbors and doing the things that need to happen every day? Yeah, we are." You were an early supporter of the last guy who talked about hope and talked about leading with a positive attitude. I think she's taking a page out of that chapter and trying to bring it back from the dark.

Claire McCaskill (32:16):
Yeah, it is lightness versus dark. It's hope versus pessimism. It's I love America versus America sucks and it's dead. And I just think, given those choices, independent swing voters are going to naturally be more inclined to want to be with lightness and dark and believing in America and patriotism.

(32:36):
I was really proud of the Democratic National Convention because I think, really for the first time in my memory, people who watched it would get a sense of how much we loved our country, and I think loving our country and knowing that we can be better than what they're selling on the other side, that we can be open and loving to all of our fellow Americans and people even who want to be Americans, it was good. I think she's got the winning ticket here. I think they just got to bring it across the finish line, Heidi.

Heidi (33:06):
Yeah, and it's going to take a lot of work. It was interesting, I was asked, "Well, you're stealing the Republicans' talking points on patriotism and love of country." And I said, "Whoever told them that was a Republican value?" I mean, come on.

(33:21):
Anyway, Claire, it's been great having you on. I hope you come back and I know I want to continue kind of having this dialogue, and I love this expression because she's one of my favorite people, Barbara Mikulski, when she used to tell us all the time, "Yes, we can talk about the macroeconomic issues, but we win when we talk about the macaroni and cheese issue."

Claire McCaskill (33:45):
So I just want to tell you that I love the name of your podcast because it's very timely, and I think everybody should look forward to the debate coming up here in just a few days because, for the first time, we're going to have a vice presidential candidate that knows how to make a hot dish.

Heidi (33:59):
Yeah, and for rural America.

Claire McCaskill (34:00):
Exactly.

Heidi (34:01):
So we're going to talk more about that as we lead into it. But, Claire, why don't you plug your podcast because I love it?

Claire McCaskill (34:07):
Oh yeah. Heidi came on my podcast and hopefully she's going to come back before the election. It's How To Win 2024, and you can find it wherever you find podcasts.

Heidi (34:15):
And if you love listening to the smartest political mind in America today, you'll love that podcast. The thing, Claire, no filter. Neither one of us have ever had it.

Claire McCaskill (34:27):
They let me cuss. I love it. They let me cuss.

Heidi (34:30):
Take care, Claire. Look forward to seeing you later. Bye-bye.

Claire McCaskill (34:34):
All right. See you later, Heidi. Love you. Bye.

Heidi (34:40):
I think this has been a special episode with these two amazing guests sharing important perspectives, and I hope you enjoyed hearing them and hearing from them. Let us know what you think and ask us questions or, again, give us great suggestions. Email us at podcast@onecountryproject.org and again, podcast@onecountryproject, all one word, .org. Thank you for joining us today on the Hot Dish, which is brought to you by the One Country Project, making sure the voices of the rest of us are heard in Washington, DC. Learn more at onecountryproject.org. We're going to be back in two weeks with more hot dish comfort food for Middle America.