One Country Project's Hot Dish

Heidi Heitkamp [00:00:04]:
Hey, welcome to the Hot Dish, comfort food for Middle America. I'm Heidi Heitkamp.

Joel Heitkamp [00:00:08]:
And I'm Joel Heitkamp. We're going to get educated today, right, Heidi?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:00:12]:
Well, who knows? I mean, you went to grade school in Mantador where, you know, two classes, or did you have three classes in every grade?

Joel Heitkamp [00:00:21]:
Well, if you count kindergarten, the first one was three classes, but after that it was three all the way through.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:00:27]:
Well, think about this, Joel. The subject that we're going to be talking about today is about rural education and this privatization of public education. Do you remember that private school that was down the street from Mantador Grade School? Neither do I.

Joel Heitkamp [00:00:42]:
No. We didn't quite have that same opportunity, did we?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:00:46]:
This is the point when we're looking at privatization of education, which is what I call, you know, basically giving private schools public money. You know, guess what? Rural gets left behind because we don't have private education in rural America.

Joel Heitkamp [00:01:01]:
Well, North Dakota always did a pretty good job, I felt, from both sides of the aisle of, of not funding private education through public dollars. But the governor actually said he would sign it. In fact, he ran on it. He said, if this happens, I'm going to do it. I think that private education should get the funding because they have kids, too. So I'm making the argument if you're an elderly person and you don't have kids, you shouldn't have to pay taxes in.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:01:28]:
Well, I think, Joel, that I would be okay with this if they had to enroll everybody who applied within their service area.

Joel Heitkamp [00:01:37]:
Well, they don't.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:01:39]:
I know. That's the point. The point is that they're cherry picking anyway. We're talking about school vouchers, as you can see, and other challenges to education, particularly education in rural America.

Joel Heitkamp [00:01:51]:
That's right. Heidi is going to talk to J.C. Bowman, a teacher and education policymaker from Tennessee. Then One Country Project board member, an Iowa State representative, and I might add, great pitcher, Representative J.D. Scholten is going to speak with Julie Von Haefen, a North Carolina state representative and school teacher. Before we get into it, we know what many of you are asking. What can I do? How can I help stop Social Security from getting cut? Stop the USDA from being gutted? Stop the destruction of the Department of Education. Well, we hear you and we're going to tell you, we're working on a Hot Dish episode dedicated solely to this topic. We want to offer you, our listeners, a guide on how we can all fight back and do what we can now, so stay tuned. In the meantime, check out One Country Project on Substack to hear from rural leaders about what you can do. And keep listening to the Hot Dish podcast.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:02:54]:
I hope that all of you who care about rural America, care about kids, and I know that's our listener base, are paying attention to this education fight because it's not just North Dakota. Last time the governor vetoed a privatization bill, and that's what we should be calling it, not a school voucher, but a privatization bill. And that's not going to happen this time. And all across the country. And this is a tribute to the other side that has absolutely plays the long game. They don't, like, take a loss in one legislative session, then not come back in the next one, right Joel?

Joel Heitkamp [00:03:30]:
Well, and in North Dakota here right now, President Trump is actually running commercials to privatize education.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:03:38]:
Really?

Joel Heitkamp [00:03:38]:
Yeah. He and Governor Armstrong are running commercials to make sure those public dollars go into private education, and they have flooded the TV airways with it, Heidi.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:03:48]:
Well, what's the pitch, Joel?

Joel Heitkamp [00:03:50]:
Well, the pitch is all about school choice. You know, how school choice is going to do nothing but help students. The counter arguments are never obviously mentioned so that they can make a case against the easy arguments to point out, which you have just now, which is public school takes any student that comes their way. Private education doesn't have to do that when it comes to curriculum. Public school offers it. Private school does what they say they want to do. I'm going to add one more thing. The new school in Fargo actually has a requirement, this is a religious school in South Fargo, they have a requirement that all female teachers sign a pledge for abstinence that they will not have sex if they're not married. I'm not kidding about this. And we're going to use public dollars to fund that, you know.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:04:50]:
No, I mean, but this is a bigger issue across the country. It's not just happening in North Dakota. And the other thing people need to understand about these organizations that are offering private education, they don't have any accountability. So how are you going to know whether you're getting any kind of effective bang for your buck? And in places where they've done this, Joel, they haven't expanded enrollment. They simply have paid for the kids who are already there, the kids whose parents live in the wealthier part of town who go to those schools. Those schools get subsidized, but functionally, it hasn't expanded choice. What it's done is basically pay for the choice people have already made.

Joel Heitkamp [00:05:32]:
Well, if you look at the private schools facilities which show they're not broke one bit. I would have liked to have played on those fields with artificial turf, with lights that lit up the way they did and with the brand new grandstands and concession stands. These guys have money. I mean, they do. They have money.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:05:51]:
And the one thing, when you go back and kind of look at this movement, people don't pay attention until something gets taken away. Right. So it's like, oh, well, that's just in the background now all of a sudden, if the education dollars for public education diminish and your kid is a kid who's still in public education, you're going to get hurt. You're going to get hurt with the deviation of those dollars to a school that doesn't have accountability standards. Right. There isn't any kind of measurement that they have to abide by. They don't have to take every student who applies. And, and you know, Donald Trump, you know, he says the education should be a state based issue. Why are you running ads in states like North Dakota?

Joel Heitkamp [00:06:38]:
Well, but one of the things that goes along with that is that Republican legislators have had such a major foothold, a majority, that the people that would normally take these people on in the halls of the Capitol are afraid of them.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:06:52]:
Yeah.

Joel Heitkamp [00:06:53]:
And because they're afraid of them, they don't lobby against it the same way they would. They don't push measures because they're fearful of what they're, what's going to happen to them very similar to what's happening on a national scale. And so governing through fear is what's happening here. And the, the private boys need to get a punch in the nose. And on news and views, we do it every day.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:07:15]:
Well, we'll see how this plays out and we will continue to talk about education because I think for a lot of people it's a sleeper issue kind of moving forward. I am here with JC Bowman. He is the Executive Director and CEO of Professional Educators of Tennessee. He has over a decade of experience as a teacher and over two decades of education policy experience working to better public school policies in Tennessee, Florida and actually nationwide. Thanks so much for joining us, JC and welcome to the Hot Dish.

JC Bowman [00:07:54]:
Thank you for having me, Senator.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:07:57]:
Well, this is a big topic all across state legislatures. I think what's so interesting is, you know, they're talking about eliminating the Department of Education as a cabinet level position in Washington. And that's sucked a lot of energy in the policy space out of the room. But, you know, and I know all across the country there is this movement to basically privatize public education. Public education being kind of the bedrock, in my opinion, of our democracy and the ability to grow great citizens. And so I want to talk to you a little bit about, from your experience, what are you seeing kind of nationwide in this movement?

JC Bowman [00:08:37]:
Well, I think we've got both an urban and a rural divide in education. I think we've seen an opportunity to measure schools and measure education. We all think if we're going to fund something, you measure it to see whether it's successful or not. So that's. So the testing industry developed alongside of, Of. Of. Of. Of all of this. And what ended up happening was that we started testing our schools and I think get tied into the privatization piece of this, and all of a sudden our public schools were failures in order to privatize. There's nothing public schools can do to get out of that mode of failures. And what's happening in the privatization side of this is there's little to no accountability. Public schools have expanded choice, whether it's open enrollment, you could take your child to another school, magnet schools, career academies, within public schools. All of these are things. And public schools have expanded out in there. But what has happened is the whole mission for education reform. I did an article a few years ago called Reform the Reformers, people that are further removed. Most of these people that are now driving the reform narrative have never spent any time in education, had a long public education.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:09:59]:
Don't you think part of the problem is that for years, people who believe in public schools have resisted a narrative that we don't need to reform, we don't need to change. And that created a sense of resistance out there to progress. And so now they're kind of caught behind the screen, still not responding to what, in fact, our legitimate parent and consumer and government concerns about the quality of education in our country.

JC Bowman [00:10:28]:
Yeah, no, that's exactly right. The initial reform movement led around one thing. How do we make public schools better? We bring charter schools in. And the goal with charter schools was to bring innovation in and implement within the public schools. And in fact, if the charter schools weren't working, you could close them. We've made it almost impossible now in Tennessee to close a failing charter school because it's. It's making somebody money. Take a famous tennis star, Andre Agassi. He's made more money off funding buildings to open charter schools than he made in his tennis career. And, you know, that is a stunning statistic. And I think people looked at this and said, how can we make money? And we want to get our hands into the public schools. And you know, our public schools are essential for our communities, particularly in rural America. I mean, I go back to my hometown, I went to a football game, small high school, first time I'd gone to a high school football game in 20 years. And there had to have been 10,000, 15,000 city residents there on a Friday night. And that's where America is. And we forget that part.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:11:43]:
Well, and what's interesting to me, in a couple things, in almost all the bills that I've looked at, there is no level of accountability. By that, I mean, we can't survey what's going on. We won't look at test scores. We're just going to give you a bunch of money and you go ahead and do what you do and there's no looking back. There's no accountability. And in places where they've done that in the privatization movement, they've discovered some real serious problems with the education quality in private schools. I want you to comment on that. But I also want what, what angers me probably more than anything in this movement is they aren't required to take everybody who applies.

JC Bowman [00:12:25]:
No.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:12:25]:
So a student that's struggling or a student that may have trouble, they don't want that student. They don't want a student with special needs. They don't want a student that has some additional learning disabilities. They just want to take the top students, maybe the top athlete, and put them in their private school and say, look what a great job I'm doing when they're basically cherry picking the best of the students.

JC Bowman [00:12:46]:
Vulnerable students in our society are being discarded. And I'm a former special ed teacher, so I want to say that, and you know, students with disabilities are being moved to the side. We're seeing that. When you talked about the federal government's role as it's being diminished, you know, I fought for three things. I mean, I picked my battles. I can only pick one thing. Title One, free and reduced lunch.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:13:10]:
Can you do this for me? Because this Title One discussion is so important to the elimination of the Department of Education. A lot of Title One funding comes from the federal government. Just explain for our listeners when we say Title One, what that means.

JC Bowman [00:13:25]:
Well, those are the dollars that go to low income students. And so, you know, the whole idea of this is that it takes more money. It's proven fact. It takes more money to educate low income students because they're falling behind from the onset. But Title One targets these low income and, and I'm adamant about that. And IDEA, which is special needs, special education. Those two areas are non start. And then you can't educate a child who is hungry. I'm sorry, you can't. I mean that's just, and those are just basic building blocks.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:14:01]:
Title One is actually going to HHS accordiing to the president. So it's kind of this recognition like, well, you deal with that because it's, it's somehow a public health concern. So now you're putting public health people in charge and not educators. And that's a real problem.

JC Bowman [00:14:18]:
I'm not seeing the transition plan.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:14:20]:
And the other part is, you know, to get good students into education. There's been loan forgiveness, but all of that's up in the air now too, under the student loan program. So all these people who said, look, I could go become an engineer, but I'm going to go be a math teacher because I care about education and I'm going to get my education loan forgiven when I provide that service to, you know, Tennessee or North Dakota, that's now all up in the air. And so there's just, I mean there is this sense that somehow people who are not education professionals can so called fix the education system. And it is, I mean, when I had cancer, I didn't go see the dentist, right? Yes, ma'am, I went to an oncologist. So how do educators on JC like yourself, people who are concerned about the profession of education and teaching, how should they focus their energy right now?

JC Bowman [00:15:19]:
Yeah, and I think that's a good question. I tell people all the time, and this is my own personal philosophy: educate, then legislate. And part of my education piece of this is I write a lot of editorials, I write a lot of information, I get a lot of stuff out there and I'm trying to educate the public on issues that I feel like that they're not aware of, to try to kind of balance it. And I think there's a disconnect between all sides. How do we meet in the middle? How can we at least reach a consensus? How can we go back and put value back into our public schools? You know what happened to the melting pot concept of bringing America together? We're getting tribalized further and further. And I think the privatization feeds right into that. Oh, you don't like having to go to school with someone of a different faith? Fine, we'll have a school for you. If you don't like doing this, we'll go have a school for you and we'll establish it and we're going to pay the price for that as a society, as it becomes more fragmented.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:16:21]:
Yeah. I mean, I've always given the example of my father's generation. He was a World War II vet. He would never have known anyone from New York, but he went to the service and his best friend was a man of Italian descent from New York. Did he have a different opinion about New Yorkers or about people who were Italian or just, you know, the people that he served with? Absolutely had a way different opinion. Having had that proximity and that experience and we don't have anything that forces us to come together. Probably the closest example is in fact education. And now we're basically allowing education to be kind of self selecting as well. Well, I'm only going to go to school with the Catholics. I'm only going to go to school with the, with the Hindus. I mean, you know, it's just not a formula for building a democracy in this country.

JC Bowman [00:17:13]:
No. And I think we're going to be poor for it as a nation, long term. And so how do we get around that? I came from a really a different background and I've always had different backgrounds from my family being different politically. It goes all the way back to the Civil War. I had both Democrats and Republicans, I mean, in my family tree. My dad was a diehard Democrat, my mom's a Republican and look, it never impeded us at having dinner, you know, so we sat at the dinner table and had discussions and we talk about issues and it was great.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:17:44]:
But the great experience that we had growing up, we knew that the public school was there and that people invested in higher education and that that education was a way into the middle class. And that's one thing that the GI Bill taught us, which is when GIs came home and they were able to go to college or go back to school or get training, that built the entire economy of our country. And so our country is basically built on education. Our economy is built on education, our way of life is built on education. But now we're dismantling those things that have shown such success in the past. And in terms of building the exceptionalism that is America.

JC Bowman [00:18:29]:
Oh, absolutely. I did the same thing your dad probably did. I couldn't have gone to college. I mean, I was that kid. I was in the middle. I was happy to graduate high school. So I did. I served in the Marine Corps. I'd like to tell you it's for noble reasons, but, you know, because I love my country and wanted to fight for it. No, I, I wasn't going to college and, and I certainly didn't want to go to work. So Marines look pretty good to me. I like the uniforms. So. So we did the Marines and I got to go to college for the money. I had three years of funding. I went through college in two and a half years because I had three years of funding. If I had four years, I'd have probably did three years.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:19:06]:
But actually my son in law did the exact same thing. Went and was able to get his CPA in three years. And so, you know, we're all today in this spot where we're like looking at the news going, oh, that's terrible. Oh, that's terrible.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:19:22]:
Oh, that's terrible.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:19:23]:
I mean, you're just, everywhere you look, you feel like it's doom. But if you look beyond the day's news and you say, what are the real threats to America looking forward? This public school challenge to me is one of the most dastardly things that is happening on the horizon. And it didn't just come out of nowhere. This has been building for a long, long time and it's now a continuation and it's been put on steroids with the elimination of the Department of Education and the state legislative efforts.

JC Bowman [00:19:56]:
Absolutely. And Senator, I tell you right now, our folks, I mean, in Tennessee, if there were rural Republicans who voted against this bill, and some of them are paying real heavy price because this was funded and you know, by certain groups that are out there, two or three groups, Americans for Prosperity, AFC, the DeVos group, and, and I mean, these guys spent millions. We defeated them the first year and the second year this, this past year where they passed the legislation. And the problem was there was nobody left to fight. A lot of people fell out of the fight, they didn't want to fight anymore and they just doubled down and spent more. My guess, it cost them well over $100 million to pass this legislation in Tennessee.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:20:42]:
You know, when people say, well, but it's a political loser, you look to the North. You have a Governor, Beshear, who literally ran on a pro public school education platform and was able to get elected as a Democrat in Kentucky.

JC Bowman [00:20:56]:
Yes.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:20:57]:
So the political support is there, but I want to dwell on the impacts to rural America and rural schools because a lot of the Republican resistance is coming out of rural districts where people say, look, that may be good for you, but if I want to send my kid to a private school, I'm going to have to drive them 100 miles round trip or 200 miles round trip. So let's talk a little bit about why this is particularly bad for Our rural schools.

JC Bowman [00:21:26]:
Well, looking at it, in Tennessee, 95, 95 counties and 50 something percent of the counties didn't even have a private school. And then of that most of them had between two and five. The only place that it was feasible was in the urban areas. And we know 66%, and that's their number, I think it's higher, I think it's closer to 80% of the kids who will take advantage of the voucher in Tennessee are already students who are enrolled in private schools. And, and, and I do Chattanooga media a lot. I'm from Cleveland, down in that neck of the woods. And so when I do the Chattanooga media, I bring it up two of the most exclusive private schools there and I go, do you think if it's $59,000 a year to go to Baylor High School that you want your taxpayer $7,000 to go to a school that's charging $59,000 and nobody wants that. I mean, they're like, no, I don't want that. That's crazy. They don't need my money.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:22:25]:
And I think as this movement progresses, there is going to be two things that happen. There's going to be an analysis of who got those slots because it wasn't, it wasn't the kid who had special needs. Trust me.

JC Bowman [00:22:38]:
Right.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:22:38]:
They don't want that kid. And it's going to be exactly what you say, which is all the money basically went to subsidize people who were already in private education.

JC Bowman [00:22:48]:
And it absolutely does not benefit public schools. It doesn't make public schools one iota better.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:22:54]:
But how do we build a better, more resilient coalition? Like you said, you beat it back once. I think that a number of states, it just doesn't go away because they've been in it for the long haul, they're well funded. And the pro public school, let's make our public schools better, those folks don't have the kind of resources to fight back on an equal footing.

JC Bowman [00:23:16]:
Lay political labels aside. I have moved completely nonpartisan. I really don't care. I don't care about the labels anymore. I haven't in 15 years identified a party to anybody. I would have a bill that's going to pass unanimously. Probably I better knock on wood because it hasn't passed yet. But we have a bill that we worked out with behavior records transferring along with the academic records at the school, passed the Senate in Tennessee, 33 to zip. So it's already on its way to the House. It passed yesterday in Committee, 18 to zip. So we think it's going to go fast track and it'll easily pass. The bottom line is lay the political labels aside, bring everybody to the table and have a discussion, and let's at least try to move together. We're never going to agree to everything. But what we will agree on is that public education is essential for our democracy. It's essential for our country. It's essential for the next generation. And if we don't pass this torch on, I fear for what that next generation is going to look like.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:24:20]:
You know, I hope that we have discussions going forward. I hope to stay on this issue. It's near and dear to my heart. I wouldn't be where I am without public education, without people investing money in schools and infrastructure. But I see that unraveling and I see that as a loss of opportunity. But more importantly, on a macro sense, it's going to hurt the American economy and American ability to be exceptional on the world stage. So, J.C. good luck.

JC Bowman [00:24:49]:
Thank you.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:24:50]:
Continue the fight. What is done can be undone. Let's just say that.

JC Bowman [00:24:54]:
Thank you.

JD Scholten [00:25:00]:
Hello, listeners. I'm J.D. Scholten, a One Country board member. Today I'm speaking with North Carolina State Representative Julie Von Haefen, who is also a longtime PTA leader and a substitute teacher. Welcome to the Hot Dish, Julie.

Julie Von Haefen [00:25:12]:
Thank you so much. Great to be here.

JD Scholten [00:25:14]:
Yeah. So we get to talk about one of my favorite things, public education. Could you talk a little bit about what's happening in North Carolina and kind of what you've had and what you're up against right now?

Julie Von Haefen [00:25:26]:
Well, since the Republicans took over our North Carolina General assembly back in 2011, I mean, we've seen just what I call death by a thousand cuts of our public education system in North Carolina. You know, over the years, they've just made many, many changes, you know, to both teacher pay, to policies around public schools, really micromanaging our local school districts from the state level. And then of course, the huge expansion of our private school voucher program, you know, which of course started out as, you know, quote, unquote, a program for low income people, people to be able to send their kids to private school. But you know, was really, that was just a wolf in sheep's clothing, you know, that it was really just to privatize education in North Carolina. And unfortunately, they have almost achieved that goal by a really harmful bill that was passed last year which basically lifted all of the income requirements for the private school voucher program. And now anybody in North Carolina can get a voucher, including millionaires who are already sending their kids to private school. And it also allowed people who were already sending their kids to private school to get that voucher. It used to be that you were making the choice, as we hear, to send your kid, and you needed help to do that. But now what's been happening since the expansion last year is that we just had a report actually this week about how now private schools are raising their tuitions all across North Carolina, because why wouldn't they, now that they get free taxpayers, your money? So I think we're seeing the same game plan in many, many states, including your own. You know that where this is happening, and we're just another example of that.

JD Scholten [00:27:08]:
Yeah. So my very first vote I had, I voted against vouchers. And we are, it's anticipated in year four to be 400% over budget. We don't have a cap. There's no auditing or reporting system. And just like what you mentioned, private schools are raising their tuitions. I think it's 75 or 80% of the students who will use it were already in private schools. Like, it's. It's the same battles. So when. What did your voucher program get implemented initially or voted on?

Julie Von Haefen [00:27:42]:
Good question. I think it was. I think it was back in the early, you know, the 2013 timeframe.

JD Scholten [00:27:47]:
Oh, you guys were pretty early then.

Julie Von Haefen [00:27:50]:
Yeah. I mean, it. Like I said, it started slowly. Right. And that's how most things start, where they just kind of, hey, let's do a pilot program, and then, you know, hey, let's expand it and let's, you know, let more people in and those kind of things. So it was a slow roll up until last year, but then when they got the super majority and we weren't able to stop it, you know, that was when things really took off.

JD Scholten [00:28:14]:
What was the impact on rural schools? Because that's. That was a big thing we fought against in selling, like, school choice. Doesn't matter when you have to drive now or to go to a private school.

Julie Von Haefen [00:28:25]:
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we can look at all the data that shows that most of the voucher recipients actually live in our more urban areas, including Raleigh and Charlotte and the Greensboro area. And many, many of our rural counties don't have even one private school. So that's what's so surprising about, you know, how rural Republicans vote on vouchers, because most of the. It does not benefit their own constituents. They're actually benefiting me as an. As a more urban legislator that lives in suburban Raleigh, you know, where a lot of, you know, people that live in this area. We have many, many private schools that receive vouchers. So, you know, they're kind of voting against their, you know, their own constituents' best interests. And you know, as we know and as is happening in every state, really across the country, in our rural schools are suffering. Here in North Carolina, you know, we've been putting more and more of the burden on funding our public school, on our county commissions, on property taxes. And we know that the rural districts don't have the tax base to support our schools. And therefore we're seeing more and more inequities, you know, across our state. And this voucher program is just exacerbating that.

JD Scholten [00:29:37]:
Now are you seeing charter schools come in? We're starting to see that in Iowa here, where we, we really haven't had any charter schools. And now we're starting to see them triple in out of state charter schools.

Julie Von Haefen [00:29:49]:
Well, unfortunately, that's another thing that's happened, you know, since the Republicans took over our legislatures, that we used to have a cap on the number of charter schools in North Carolina at 100. They removed that cap several years ago. And so we already had a major influx of for profit national, you know, corporations and coming in to operate charter schools all across our state. And so, yes, I mean, that's kind of already happened, you know, where these charter schools are going in and kind of taking over some of these rural areas. So that was kind of the first wave, I think. And then the voucher and the expansion of private schools is now the second wave that's really hurt our public schools.

JD Scholten [00:30:32]:
Like I mentioned previously, I talk about the voucher program in Iowa as it's the most fiscally irresponsible bill ever to pass the state of Iowa. Do you guys have reporting or auditing systems?

Julie Von Haefen [00:30:44]:
Yeah, I mean, we have absolutely no accountability around this. I would say that, you know, the one thing is that last year when they did this expansion, you know, they kind of threw a bone in and said, well, we're going to require all the private schools that get vouchers to do kind of a nationally standardized test so that we can compare. We still haven't decided what that test is going to be. We had a changeover of our dpi, our superintendent and our board. So it was put onto that department to do that. And the old superintendent decided to kind of kick the can down the road because she was not going to be reelected. And so she didn't want to deal with it. So we haven't even determined what that test is going to be. But no, we have no reporting requirements, no accountability requirements. And as Democrats, you know, we keep filing, you know, of course, bills to, like, at least if we're not going to eliminate the program or, or lower it back to what it was, then let's put some accountability. I mean, most people that find out that we're throwing hundreds of millions of dollars toward these vouchers without any kind of understanding of where it's going or what it's doing. I mean, the public obviously does not like that, and that's why we talk about that as much as we can.

JD Scholten [00:31:57]:
And what do you hear from the Republicans about funding public education?

Julie Von Haefen [00:32:02]:
Oh, they give a lot of good lip service. You know, they say that they raise teacher pay every year that they've been in power. But, you know, we are now 48th in the country, you know, for teacher pay. We are almost, I think last in the Southeast. I mean, North Carolina used to be a beacon for public education. It's just really sad how far we've fallen. You know, we had Governor Hunt who, you know, if you're in the public education sphere, you know that he was a leader in, like, pre K and, you know, all these things, and he was our education governor, and we've really fallen really far. So they, they talk about that they raise teacher pay, but it's obviously, it's not keeping up with the cost of living. We have major teacher vacancies. They're not able to keep up with, you know, just the cost of the world right now. And what I'm really worried about is that our teacher pipeline is drying up and that people are not going into the profession. And we're really going to feel that, you know, five, 10 years down the road.

JD Scholten [00:32:59]:
That's a huge concern here in Iowa, too. So a little bit about, like, how I got into politics is, I mean, I was part of the reaction to Trump winning in 2016, and I got more involved. But my grandmother's my biggest inspiration, and she was a fifth grade teacher her whole entire life. So after running for Congress twice, I was asked to run for this state House seat. And I was like, I'm good. I'm exhausted. I'm done. But then the very next day, there were senators down at the Capitol, started attacking teachers and called them. They said they had a sinister agenda and all that jazz. And that's when I just like, well, I can't sit on the sideline.

Julie Von Haefen [00:33:40]:
Yeah, I mean, I think every state, you know, is really struggling with these same issues. And it's just sad, you know, like you said, how far states that used to be leaders in this area have fallen. And, you know, that's what made me run for office as well, that, you know, I worked in our public schools for almost 10 years as my kids were growing up and going to school. And I became really active, you know, with our school PTA and then became our county president and then served on our state board. And really saw, you know, that those inequities between our rural and urban school districts is really what drives me because, you know, I don't think any kid should have a disadvantage or an advantage just because of where they live. And, you know, I know this podcast talks a lot about rural issues, and that is a huge rural issue in North Carolina as well.

JD Scholten [00:34:30]:
I mean, to me, public education is the great equalizer. Doesn't matter your zip code, doesn't matter your parents' economic status. It's. You have a chance to get a good education or you should have a chance to get a good education and allow you to do whatever you want in life and that. But it's, to me, like, that's the thing that we're missing in that community base. Like, it's such. It makes communities stronger is public education.

Julie Von Haefen [00:34:56]:
I feel, I always say public schools are the heart of our community because it's not just kids going to school there. It's where families gather. It's where kids get services. Even families. Families can get connected to community services. You know, it's a gathering place. It's a place where families and kids feel safe. And, you know, it's really sad with the immigration issues that are going on now that now families don't even. Kids don't even feel safe at school anymore. And that breaks my heart, you know, for both gun violence, immigration, you know, all these things that are happening in our society. And like I said, school used to be a place where people could gather and feel good. And that's what I want to work for. And that's why I keep doing this work so that we can. We can restore that, that sense for kids. And, you know, the other thing, you know, that I'm sure we could do a whole another hour on is a case that's been going on here in North Carolina for over 30 years called the Leandro case, which was basically five rural school districts that sued the state and said, you're not providing our kids with a. With a good public education and we're going to sue you. And the, basically our Supreme Court over the last 30 years, many many appeals has agree, said that yes, we are not doing what we need to do. They provided us a plan, the court got an outside organization to evaluate North Carolina public schools and said, this is what you need to do to be in compliance with your state constitution. And we are still arguing about it because the Republican legislature has said the courts can't make us basically. So this is another issue of separation of powers that they're saying, well, the courts can't make us do that. And you're seeing that reflected nationally now, you know, where the Trump administration is like issuing executive orders that, you know, and they're like, well, wait a minute, Congress is supposed to do that.

JD Scholten [00:36:50]:
Well, God bless here. Let's talk about the Department of Education at the federal level. And we don't know what's happening with that. They're trying to dismantle that. We don't know what that means. Could you talk a little bit about the impact of what the Department of Education just like funding lies and what they do for local schools?

Julie Von Haefen [00:37:08]:
Yeah, I mean, it would be really devastating. I mean, right now, you know, as we're recording this, I believe, you know, all that's happened at this point is that they've cut a lot of the staff from the Department of Education. But if we think about if they start cutting the funding is when it's really going to affect states. You know, it's already going to affect states because they're dealing with the staff up and, you know, in the federal office trying to do grant work and, you know, other things. And so that's already going to affect, you know, just kind of the central office, daily life of, of our public schools. But when you think about the funding, I mean, I know in North Carolina we have almost 80,000 public school employees statewide that are paid for through federal funding. And so if you think about if they cut, you know, all that funding, whether it's for special education, students with disabilities, Title 1 schools, which are our lower income schools, it is absolutely going to devastate our public school system. And that really, you know, along with everything else in the world that is very worrisome and keeps me up at night.

JD Scholten [00:38:14]:
That's why we need leaders like yourself continue to fight for us. How will you reverse the course here when it comes to education?

Julie Von Haefen [00:38:21]:
Well, I mean, what gives me hope is like all the amazing advocates that are continuing to fight. I mean, I just met, we had a press conference last week because every year I file a bill around that court case to fund. We're supposed to be on year Six of this eight year plan, you know, the implementation of this plan to get in compliance with their constitution. So every year, this is my sixth year in a row, I filed this bill to fund, you know, this plan. And we had a press conference last week and the, one of the original plaintiffs from the case 31 years ago came to my press conference. So that gives me a lot of hope that these people are still fighting and they have not given up. And you know, we know the political realities in our state. We're up against, you know, a Republican-controlled Supreme Court at this point, a Republican majority in our legislature who has been unfriendly to public education. So I'm under no delusion that like they're going to pass my bills or they're going to change the voucher program, you know, at this point. But what gives me hope is like all these people that I work with outside of the building, outside the legislature that just continue to push, they tell their stories about, you know, how their schools are suffering. You know, teachers come in and tell their stories about taking two and three jobs to get by. You know, we're not going to stop speaking out. We're not going to stop fighting for our kids because we all know that they're the most important thing. And so, you know, I think that's what, that's what gives me hope and that's where, you know, hopefully we'll be able to make a change eventually and hopefully I'll be around to see it. So.

JD Scholten [00:40:01]:
Absolutely. So wrapping up here, I guess what is one thing that you could tell listeners, if they want to support public education, what do you think they should do?

Julie Von Haefen [00:40:12]:
Vote. Vote for pro public school candidates. You know, I think that a lot of other issues get a lot of attention. Right. You know, we know we people are very concerned about the economy and, and other things that, you know, get a lot of the bulk of the press and the attention. And I wish that the press talked about education and public more. You know, they have been now that the Department of Education may be, you know, cut. So I've been hearing a lot more. But during the election last year, you know, I didn't feel like it got as much of attention from the press as I hear from voters, you know, when. I'm sure you feel the same way when you're at the doors talking to voters as you're campaigning. This is probably one of the number one issues that I hear about because I do represent a suburban area with a lot of families, a lot of families with young kids who are very concerned about their schools, about how their teachers are getting by, that some classrooms don't have teachers, you know. And so my second piece of advice would be continue to tell your story about how great your public school is, because our narrative right now is that public schools are failing. And, you know, they're, they're horrible places. And that is not at all like my experience as a parent of three public schools school kids. As you know, obviously, like I said, I went through my own public school experience. I work in our public schools. I did as a parent volunteer. And this whole narrative that parents are not welcome in our public schools and they're indoctrinating our kids and teachers, like you said, we're attacking your grandmother as a fifth grade teacher. It's just ridiculous. So the more that people can tell the story about their amazing public schools and the amazing things that are happening there, we've got to turn the narrative around and make sure that everyone knows how imperative they are for our communities and how important they are honestly for the future of our country, because our country was built on public education and we need to make it stay that way.

JD Scholten [00:42:14]:
Absolutely. Julie, thank you so much. This was wonderful.

Julie Von Haefen [00:42:18]:
You're welcome. Thanks for having me on.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:42:22]:
Education is so important in ensuring it's available to everyone, regardless of who you are or where you live. That's pretty damn important too. So we're glad to have the opportunity to learn more about this issue from educators working to improve policies.

Joel Heitkamp [00:42:37]:
Are you a teacher worried about vouchers or a parent or student living in rural America who is concerned about cuts and changes education? Let us know what you think.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:42:48]:
Email us. Our email address is podcast@onecountryproject.org. That's podcast@onecountryproject (alloneword) .org.

Joel Heitkamp [00:42:59]:
And you can also reach us on Bluesky and Substack.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:43:03]:
Well, thanks for joining us today on the Hot Dish, which is brought to you by the One Country Project, making sure that the voices of the rest of us are heard in Washington. Learn more at onecountryproject.org.

Joel Heitkamp [00:43:16]:
We'll be back in two weeks with more Hot Dish, comfort food for Middle America.