One Country Project's Hot Dish

Joel Heitkamp [00:00:04]:
Welcome to the Hot Dish, comfort food for middle America. I'm not Heidi Heitkamp. I'm the much younger Joel Heitkamp. Heidi left me alone to tell you about this episode, and it's a good one. Isaac Wright is back on the Hot Dish and he and I are going to talk about how a Democrat should engage rural Americans. Then we're bringing you a great conversation between Heidi and veteran political strategist Paul Begala. They talk about some of the things Democrats can do to protect rural Americans and make it through all this chaos. But before we get to that, I want to do a little listener mail.

Joel Heitkamp [00:00:42]:
A lot of you have been writing in asking about the misinformation problem in rural America. I want you to know we've heard you and we're working on it. So stay tuned for an upcoming episode on just that. If there's something you think we should talk about, let us know. Send us an email to podcast@onecountryproject.org. That's podcast@onecountryproject.org.But now let's bring in Isaac Wright, a founder of the Rural Voter Institute. We're going to talk about, and we need to talk about, ways that the Democrats can regain ground with rural Americans. And you know what? We need to talk about whether or not they can. And that's a big part of what Isaac works towards.

Joel Heitkamp [00:01:28]:
Isaac, welcome back to the Hot Dish. How are you doing?

Isaac Wright [00:01:31]:
Great to be with you again. Doing great.

Joel Heitkamp [00:01:34]:
You know, Isaac, this question comes up on my radio show more than anything because most of my listeners are Republicans. They enjoy good old fashioned conversation. They're middle of the road, I really believe. But they don't vote for Democrats anymore. So how do we fix that?

Isaac Wright [00:01:52]:
We have to be present, right? For one thing, we have to look at building infrastructure on the ground politically in rural America again. Right. We have a new DNC chair who has a great record, track record of investing in rural operations. And I think that is an opportunity for us as a national party to reengage and do a better job in rural America. And secondly, we have to understand the difference between policy discussions and, and talking about real life situations and how those two things interact and the cultural awareness, right?

Isaac Wright [00:02:25]:
When we talk about things with the economy, right, Joe Biden did a great deal of investment in rural America, but they talked about it often in terms of policy and numbers of what finances move to invest in this facility, in this area. But it's more than that, right? It's talking about the larger problems that goes to address. You and I have talked about the wage gap before in rural America, right. On average, a rural American earns 75 cents on the dollar compared to their more metropolitan counterparts. We have to acknowledge that where you live in this country should not determine whether or not you feel the full value of being in America.

Joel Heitkamp [00:03:05]:
But everything you said is true. And here's the thing. You're letting facts get in the way of messaging, and that's a real problem in rural America right It seems to me that we get defined by the national party, and it isn't a good message for rural Democrats. I'm curious what your take on that is.

Isaac Wright [00:03:28]:
Well, I'm just shocked that you can source out exactly what the national party's message is. I'm curious to hear it so that we can talk about the problems with. That's one thing is we have to figure out a better job of how we, as Democrats define ourselves. And what does that mean nationally? What does that mean to the average American voter, including rural voters? We need to make that clear. For decades, the Democratic Party was the champion of working people. It was the champion of working families. I believe that our party still believes in those policies, but we don't talk about that at the forefront of how we define ourselves. And we have to do a better job of that.

Joel Heitkamp [00:04:08]:
Isaac. When I was serving in the state Senate, part of my legislative district was the area where they made Bobcats, you know, the skid steers, a lot of union guys. And they were all in on helping me, voting for me. Heck, I. When they. When they went out on strike for three days, I stood in the rain with them with a sign in my hands. I mean, we're friends, and we're still friends today. They don't vote Democrat anymore.

Joel Heitkamp [00:04:32]:
They think that the Democratic Party has gone too far to the left. And some of those issues I know you know about, and one of those. And it. It comes up every damn time I stop and have a beer with them, is guns. I mean, it really is. It's guns. And I. I own guns.

Joel Heitkamp [00:04:52]:
You own guns. I probably own more guns than what I should own. But the truth is, how the heck do we get around that issue that I'm trying to take away their gus?

Isaac Wright [00:05:02]:
Well, first of all, I just want to remind you the last time we talked about this issue on the podcast, you promised me a pheasant hunt. I'm still waiting on my invitation.

Joel Heitkamp [00:05:10]:
Do you want me to send you pictures? Because I'll tell you what, I'd love it.

Isaac Wright [00:05:14]:
I'd Love it.

Joel Heitkamp [00:05:14]:
I had a good fall. I had a really good fall.

Isaac Wright [00:05:16]:
Oh man, I'd love it. I'd love it. We have to remind people, nobody is talking about taking away a law abiding citizens firearm, right? We're not talking about taking away the means that for many of us, including in my family, is the primary means we put protein on the dinner table. But that is different than taking the gun, the assault rifle out of the hands of somebody who is on the verge of breaking and shooting at a school and harming our children, our families. Right.

Isaac Wright [00:05:47]:
Someone who is a criminal or who is about at the point of a mental breakdown and going into a school or a workplace for a shooting. Those are two different things, right? Gun safety is something that at least when I was a kid we were taught in hunter firearm safety course, right? Gun safety in today's world means keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. And surely that is something we can all agree on. And we have to go back and have real conversations about that.

Joel Heitkamp [00:06:14]:
Well, and maybe that's a way that Ken can help. I mean, he came from my backyard. I've had him on my radio show a bunch of times because a big part of my listening area is Minnesota where he was state party chair. And one of the arguments that I made to him is, and I didn't really need to make it to him because he got it, was that Democrats needed to know and understand guns. I think that the biggest problem that we have with certain Democrats is they see a gun and they think of an ar. They don't realize that we could get rid of a binary trigger, that we could get rid of a bump stock, that we could reduce the size of a clip. But you got to know guns to know that. And I don't know how we convince the east and west coast to get to the point where they do.

Joel Heitkamp [00:07:03]:
If they see a synthetic stock, they don't instantly think, AR, that's exactly right.

Isaac Wright [00:07:08]:
I was on Fox News one time when this very issue came up and it was about the bump stock ban. And I wound up having to explain to the Republican talking head on the program from Los Angeles how a bump stock actually works, works and what it means and what it does, right? We need more people in our party who understand the difference between a .22 rifle for squirrel hunting and a .223 caliber for coyote hunting. And then the difference that caliber means in something like an AR15, right? Those are the kind of questions and we don't have enough leaders in our party who probably recognize that. I think, that's a fair evaluation. But that's something I think that we have the opportunity to work on and build on and fix in the next few years.

Joel Heitkamp [00:07:54]:
We still don't have a farm bill and we've got a president that brings his kid to the White House. Wait a second. That's the other guy. That's president. But my point is this. We don't have a farm bill. And Elon Musk is going about any place they can to cut federal dollars without looking at how those federal dollars actually work. You've got a situation where when it comes to federal dollars, we're completely reliant upon federal crop insurance.

Joel Heitkamp [00:08:25]:
If they continue to cut and cut and cut, and that's an area because Project 2025 puts them in their sights. If they do that, what type of opportunity is there for Democrats?

Isaac Wright [00:08:38]:
Well, I think the contrast between cutting support for the agricultural system, for farms, for family farms in the backbone of the American economy, that puts food on our tables and in our refrigerators, compared to the Trump Elon Musk cabal right now. And I think I saw in the news recently the federal government's order for armored Tesla trucks. Those kind of priorities are something we need to remind people about and the contrast in priorities. But to have a contrast, we also have to make clear what our priorities are. And it's not just a farm bill and agriculture. It's tackling the bigger discrepancy in the economy between the economy in rural America and the rest of the country. And we have to talk about that front on.

Joel Heitkamp [00:09:28]:
Yeah, it just seems to me that farmers are going to wake up and realize that they've put themselves at risk financially. It's been good times on the farm. But you and I both know, soybeans are down 2, 3 bucks. Cattle prices are high. But you know how ranchers work versus one day versus the other. I mean, I think they've got tubs of money buried in their yard. I mean, these guys are really conservative. So I think that the, the progressive corn, soybean, and I'm, I'm talking about the commodities in my area. You know, yours is, is different.

Joel Heitkamp [00:10:05]:
But these guys are scared. They're starting to wake up a little bit. That holy cow. Maybe this isn't an administration that supports agriculture as much as what we thought.

Isaac Wright [00:10:15]:
That's absolutely right. We are going to see what those priorities are, and I think we have some pretty good evidence of them already. But when we talk about these things, we have to keep in mind that there are all These factors in terms of what's going on with trade tariffs and things. And we see arguments with the current administration about tariffs on metals coming out of Mexico and Canada. But have you seen anything about Brazilian beef and labeling on that? Right. These are the things that impact all of us because we're all consuming these products and they're what affect the American farmer. And the family farm is going to feel the ramifications of these things so much more directly. The massive big agricultural companies that are multinationals.

Joel Heitkamp [00:11:07]:
Isaac, how does the Democratic Party message and get across its position on faith?

Isaac Wright [00:11:15]:
Oh, wow. That is something we need to be talking more about, right? In fact, I spoke at the DNC this year at the Faith Council meeting about exactly how we do that and how we talk about an ecumenical faith, how we recognize that the majority of Americans in this country are believers, regardless of what their faith tradition is, if they're Christian, what their individual denomination is, the majority of people in this country are people of faith. So how do we talk about that? How do we better engage? And I think one thing is that if it's true for you, be open and comfortable talking about your faith, don't be afraid to talk about it, right? For me personally, the reason I'm a Democrat, the reason I have a lot of the convictions I have, are the Sunday school lessons I had growing up.

Isaac Wright [00:12:05]:
Right? Matthew 25, Jesus said that the sheep and the goats, that we as believers will be separated, will be judged on how we treated the orphan, the poor, the widow, the foreigner amongst us. Do we, as believers, engage in our government and our public system in a way that reflects the values Jesus said believers will be judged on in our economic policies of how we treat the poor, how we treat the sick, the widow and the orphan, our immigration policies, and how we treat the foreigner amongst us. This is what Jesus said believers would be judged upon. This is why I have a lot of the personal convictions I have. So do people of faith talk openly and out about that? Because there is a difference between those who are cultural believers and who are believers in faith.

Joel Heitkamp [00:12:58]:
The simple fact is the Republican Party at the legislative level in these rural states has used this as a wedge issue. And I'm going to give you an example of what happened here in my home state. There was a bill that was attempted. Well, it passed, so it worked. But what the bill did was was it allowed the school boards to post the Ten Commandments up in the classroom. And the justification the state Senator had for doing that was because it was a historic document that that the kids needed to learn that from a historic background.

Joel Heitkamp [00:13:40]:
It wasn't being placed up as a religious background. And so I asked that state Senator, you know, what the Ten Commandments were? And she went into this long history, and I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, I want to know what they are. I said, tell you what, I only need nine. I'll give you the first one. I am the Lord thy God. You shall place no God there. You got one.

Joel Heitkamp [00:14:04]:
Give me nine. She got to six, and she was so mad. And trust me, I played that as a promo just about every day. But my point is, I called her out and I pointed out that I knew them. Actually, I got about to nine before I forgot one. But the point is, we don't challenge them that much on this. I'm curious what you think about that.

Isaac Wright [00:14:29]:
It's part of this fear that I feel like Democrats too often have, that they're scared of offending someone if they talk about their own faith tradition, right? Acknowledging what drives your convictions is not only something that is important so people really know who they're talking to, they know who they're voting for, but it's how people know they can trust you, right? And that's a conversation that we need to be more open to having, including, if you're agnostic, then be open about that.

Isaac Wright [00:15:01]:
Talk about it. Talk about where your values come from. For so many of us, it is our faith tradition. It is our personal faith, and we need to do a better job of engaging and talking about it.

Joel Heitkamp [00:15:12]:
Do you think Ken Martin invites more people from the rural area to the table?

Isaac Wright [00:15:17]:
Absolutely.

Joel Heitkamp [00:15:18]:
It took a lot to get that position. It was a fight. It was a scramble. But he is from Minnesota, and so do you think more people like yourself and myself might have a seat at that table?

Isaac Wright [00:15:31]:
Absolutely. In fact, I would say I think Ken is probably one of the single most qualified people in the country to be DNC chair. From the perspective of how we build back in rural America. Before the idea of how we build back, how we evolve from where we are currently to where we used to be or where we need to be in rural America, Ken Martin saw the crisis, right? One of the first invitations, in fact, I think the very first invitation we got for the Rural Voter Institute to present our data and talk about how Democrats and progressives do a better job of engaging in community was from Ken Martin to speak at the Association of State Democratic Chairs because Ken came to us and said, people need to hear this data. They need to know that there is a path of how we do better. I think since then, we've spoken three times, the ASDC and presented data from Ken's invitation, including in addition to at the DFL.

Isaac Wright [00:16:32]:
I think Ken is somebody who sees it, who recognized this crisis politically, even perhaps before the rest of the country did and certainly before most of our other Democratic leaders did. He is uniquely qualified from the perspective of how we do better in rural America to be the DNC chairman. And I'm thankful he's there.

Joel Heitkamp [00:16:52]:
Isaac, I could do it all day, I really could. And I'm going to talk you into it another time. Trust me. We'll go pheasant hunting. A lot of it's up to you. You know, get the pickup and get your butt up here. How's that?

Isaac Wright [00:17:03]:
Well, see, my plan is, is to get an invitation, come record a podcast face to face, either before or after the bird hunt. I think I want it to be before so you can't brag about how you hit all the birds and I missed them.

Joel Heitkamp [00:17:14]:
Yeah. Wait till you see my dog work. You'll love it. So where do people find your work?

Isaac Wright [00:17:20]:
The RuralVoterInstitute.org, join us online. You can sign up there for emails. You can see all of our data, including creating the blueprint for how we do better.

Joel Heitkamp [00:17:29]:
Thanks, man. Appreciate you coming on Hot dish.

Isaac Wright [00:17:32]:
Good to be here.

Joel Heitkamp [00:17:37]:
You know, I love talking to Isaac. He's just, he's a great guy. Speaking of great guys, Paul Begala joined Heidi to talk about ways we can help rural Americans survive all this mess, all this chaos. Take it away, Heidi.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:17:52]:
Thanks, Joel. I'm with Paul Begala, who was a counselor to President Bill Clinton and is now a Professor - woo-hoo - and political contributor for CNN. Welcome to the Hot Dish, Paul.

Paul Begala [00:18:02]:
Heidi, thank you so much. It's a great honor to be here. I love what you're doing. As a small town guy who spends about half his life on a farm in Virginia, I love what you're doing.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:18:12]:
We're going where fools dare to go, let me tell you. And people keep asking me, do you really think that you can win rural America? And I said, I've never said that. I said, we need to quit losing rural America so badly that we can't make up for it in other parts of the country. And so plus, I think that there's just a lot of disaffected rural Americans who really care about this country, care about their economy, care about their neighbors who sit back who have really become demoralized because they don't hear anything about them. They don't hear anything about, you know, kind of where they land in this great country of ours. And, you know, it's been interesting cause I've been watching the administration and a lot of what they're rolling back has had dramatic effects on land grant colleges, dramatic effects on local housing, rural housing grants. I mean, you lay it out, and I think there's this sense, I would say, of talking to people out there. Well, they're just going through this process now.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:19:11]:
We're going to get all that money back because he really cares about us and that this is just a temporary glitch in the commitment. And, you know, I keep saying, you know, don't hold your breath.

Paul Begala [00:19:22]:
I think you're completely right, Heidi. In fact, this is my mindset for the next. Wait. I have it on my computer. How many days? From the day we are taping this, 1436 days. And every single day, the word of the day is betrayal. That's different from resistance, you know.

Paul Begala [00:19:39]:
Oh, resistance.

Paul Begala [00:19:40]:
Because, look, he's gonna be right about some things. I think he used to be right about TikTok, and then he flip flopped on TikTok. So I, I don't want to resist. It's betrayal. A lot of really good people, people in my family voted for Donald Trump. Really good. Now, look, all the races voted for Trump too, but this is where the left gets it wrong. It's the fallacy of composition.

Paul Begala [00:20:01]:
All the racists are Trump supporters, obviously, but not all the Trump supporters are racist. In fact, the overwhelming majority of them are really, really good people who just want to feed the world, fight our wars, teach our kids, and live the American dream. So what do we say to them? My view is: he's betraying you. Look, you don't have to even go beyond this very first minute in office where weirdly, he wouldn't put his hand on the Bible - I think he was worried about the singe marks - but he was sworn in in the rotunda because it was too cold outside, which is probably hilarious to your listeners in the upper Midwest. But I'm a Southerner.

Paul Begala [00:20:33]:
I have thin blood, so I don't, I don't blame him. He's surrounded by the wealthiest men in the world. The Billionaire Broligarchs. They all got in, into the warmth and into the inner circle. Not a single auto worker from Michigan who elected him. Not a single dairy farmer from Wisconsin who elected him. Not a single steel worker from Pennsylvania who elected him. None of the guys and gals who put him there were there when he took power.

Paul Begala [00:20:59]:
And he is going to betray them every day. We watch his budget, we, we watch his tax cuts, we watch how he's decimating rural America. That's what we ought to be talking about, how this guy, you weren't wrong to vote for him. We get it. You want to throw a brick through the plate class window, you've been left out, left behind, I get it. But this guy is stabbing you in the back, he's betraying you. And I think that's frankly more honest and accurate and I think it's probably more politically successful. What do you think?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:21:25]:
Well, I mean, you think about this. The minute he got cornered on food inflation, he said, oh yeah, I'm not going to do that. And now, you know, we have rising inflation, no big surprise given threats of tariffs and a lot of his economic policies. And some of this is pent up, you know, long term supply challenges that we've had since the pandemic. And the first thing he does, see what Biden did. And you want to say, you know, what you said, day one, you're in charge, everything day one is on you. And so the idea that he was going to lower their fuel costs, lower their gas, you know, their insurance costs, which you know and I know are going to go through the roof given everything that's going on with natural disasters, but yet it seems like that in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, there still is this cult-like kind of affinity, you know, he's our guy, we love him, you know, and, and he can do no wrong. Even though everything in my life is not going better.

Paul Begala [00:22:28]:
Well, that's right. And I don't think we'll ever crack that, that hardcore base. By the way, there's a hardcore base for the Democrats too, that no Republican, but that's like 35%, no matter what. Remember he said I could shoot a man on Fifth Avenue, not lose any votes. He literally was found by a court of law to have sexually abused a woman on Fifth Avenue. And he didn't lose any votes with that base. So I get that. But there's a whole lot of people in the middle who go back and forth and they believe the Democrats have betrayed them. More culturally than economically.

Paul Begala [00:22:57]:
But culture really, really matters. I get so angry with my fellow Democrats when they talk about poor folks, rural folks. They say, why? It's so patronizing. Why do they vote against their economic interest? These are millionaires on Park Avenue who vote for Democrats who raise their taxes. And I say to them, well, you're voting against your economic interests. Oh, but it's because I'm so virtuous.

Paul Begala [00:23:18]:
Well, guess what?

Paul Begala [00:23:18]:
There's a lot of virtue in rural America too, and in inner city America. So we have to be able to connect with them on their values as well as their economics. But you are right. I checked. I wrote it all down, Heidi, because I'm a nerd. The day he took office, day one, eggs were $4.14 a cart. They're $4.95 now. That's only 25 days.

Paul Begala [00:23:39]:
Gas was $2.95. It's already $3.05 in three weeks. So we're going to keep score. But I also think we, we Democrats, have to do what you have been so great at, just connecting culturally. I'm one of you. I get it. I, I, I share your values. And in fact, I think this guy is betraying our shared values.

Paul Begala [00:24:01]:
You know, it's too many Democrats who, it kills me, breaks my heart. But they look at folks in rural America and they say, you're, you're dumb, you're racist, you're whatever. And that's just not true. You know that from your own lived experiences and so do I.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:24:16]:
Yeah. My favorite line is when people say they vote against their interests, I say no, no one ever votes against their interest. You just don't understand what their interest is.

Paul Begala [00:24:24]:
Yes, because it's so patronizing otherwise. And they know, believe me, most, you know this too, most of the folks I talk to in small town America, rural America, they don't actually think Trump's going to raise their minimum wage. They don't even think he's going to keep the rural hospital open. (They might, he won't.) But they have fallen into a politics that is so heartbreaking to me and that is a politics where they no longer believe that the purpose of government is to do the greatest good for the greatest number. Right now we could argue about how to do that. You know, George Bush had one way, Bill Clinton had another and okay. ut we were all between the ditches there.

Paul Begala [00:24:59]:
Now, too many folks believe the purpose of politics is to own the libs, just to hurt you, to hurt your feelings. And that doesn't get anything done. And I think one of the reasons you've been so successful is you're always about practical solutions to real world problems, not the kind of posturing, clickbait, you know, Twitter nonsense that you get from some of these folks.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:25:23]:
Well, so a lot of people out there listening and saying, look, I get up in the morning or I can't sleep at night because I'm worried about what's happening with children in Gaza. I'm worried about what's happening with my local school and whether those kids will get Title One. The education that's coming with a lot of what Trump's doing is valuable, I think, because now all of a sudden people say, okay, what does USAID do? What does the Department of Education do? And I'm like any person who understands the Department of Education understands how critically important it is for disabled children. And so I think there's an opportunity there. But let's give people a practical kind of to do list, Paul. I mean, they're out there. They don't want to just be passive about this. They want to do something, but they want to do something that matters.

Paul Begala [00:26:15]:
Well, what I would do is I would take all these cell phones that we all carry - and this is Satan's tool, believe me - but I would take it and I'd take it to the grocery store. In other words, become part of the media. The media has got huge problems. And I work at CNN and I love it. And you work at CNBC, I'm sure you love it. But the mainstream media is no longer going to do this. People want to hear from their neighbors.

Paul Begala [00:26:36]:
They don't want to hear from me. Don't tell CNN because they'll fire me. But take your phone, go to your grocery store, and film a video of how much it costs now just to put bacon and eggs on the table and how much more it costs and how angry you are about that, about how this. Or at your school. God help us, the Education Department, by the way, is one of the most efficient things in the government. It runs a $79 billion operation on 4,000 employees. Mr. Musk, by the way, his Tesla is about a $95 billion, so slightly bigger.

Paul Begala [00:27:09]:
He's got 140,000 employees. So the Department of Education is actually about, you know, six times more efficient than Mr. Musk's corporation. Go and film. I guess you can't film children, but, you know, film at your school. The stuff that he's cutting is the stuff that hurts his own voters most. I guess that's the thing that gets me so upset because again, it used to be politics was about you voted for someone and they paid you back by doing things for you.

Paul Begala [00:27:37]:
Kind of like what Mr. Trump is doing with Mr. Putin. But these really good people, particularly in rural America, they stood in line to vote for this guy and he is stabbing him in the back. So go and record tha. Post. You know, it's like I got off of X because it was too toxic. I used to use it all the time. I've just started on this Bluesky, which seems to be great, was a lot less so than hateful, racist, anti-Semitic content that used to get on Twitter. And it.

Paul Begala [00:28:04]:
So I would say take, take control yourself of the narrative. Post what it is that's bothering you. Post where it is that Mr. Trump has betrayed you. I mean, we've lost, what, 150 rural hospitals in the last decade. And as you know, you lose that hospital, you're through.

Paul Begala [00:28:20]:
You're just through.

Paul Begala [00:28:21]:
People won't live there. And, and now they're going after our public schools more in the state level. In my beloved Texas, they're trying to get rid of the public school. So if you don't have Friday Night Lights and if you don't have a, you know, emergency room, this is not my. I guess the only thing you got left is your church. You're going to need it because you're gonna have to pray for faith healing.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:28:39]:
When you look at people's kind of ability, there's another thing that I would add to that. Do not let postings that are not factual go unanswered. And so now we know that all of the major platforms have basically said we're out of the fact checking business. You know, so we're going to crowdsource fact checking. And I don't know what's better. In some ways, I think that might be a better way to fact check given, you know, the kind of corporate ducking that's going on right now that, you know, they're cowering to power. But, but to me, the other thing that I would say is be proactive in terms of what you want from your government.

Paul Begala [00:29:19]:
Right.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:29:19]:
You know, get out there. The interesting thing is there's these number of these apps that you can make a phone call to congressional members. I don't know if you've seen that. There's so many phone calls coming now to Congress that has basically jammed the lines. They're, I mean, and these are discreet folks who are saying, I got to do something, I got to make a phone call. I've got to raise my concern about my privacy. Is he going to reveal that? But, but do not let a posting that a friend puts go unanswered. You don't need to be mean about it.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:29:51]:
But you may want to say, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, you might want to check out these sources and this source and better understand, you know, kind of what the Facts are here because unanswered way too often. And I think this is where the Biden administration was so horrible. Never. It's like, oh, no one will believe that. Or we're too important to answer those crazy comments that you're all making. We're not going to listen to what people are saying that you can see trends in social media, but we need to have people out there who are fact checking what's getting posted.

Paul Begala [00:30:21]:
That's exactly right, Heidi. And I do think the attitude needs to be they're lying to you, not you're a dad gum liar, right? Because that puts people off. But if you say, you know, they're lying to us. I check this out and there are, you know, factcheck dog. Org. By the way, cnn, if I can brag on the network I work at, does a great job of fact checking.

Paul Begala [00:30:38]:
This guy, Daniel Dale, hardest working man in show business. Snopes. Also checks. I literally like, and I'm 63. My old high school history teacher, Mr. Dratchenberg back home in, in Portman County, Texas, still emails me. We're still friends. And I'm like his personal fact checker because he's like, this doesn't seem right.

Paul Begala [00:30:58]:
But here's what they're telling me in Rosenberg, Texas. And so I go and look it up and I say, no, here, Dratch, here's what it is. So that's really important. Neighbor to neighbor, peer to peer. And the attitude, we can empower people with that. Go to Snopes, go to factcheck.org, go to CNN's Daniel Dale, Fact Checker. Go to the Washington Post's Glenn Kessler, the fact checker there, who gives these Pinocchios for people who lie and just say, hey, they're lying to us.

Paul Begala [00:31:23]:
I checked it out and that's, I think that's really powerful. I'm really glad you're raising it.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:31:28]:
So in the few minutes that we have left, I want to turn to the Democratic Party that has, you know, in any good democracy, the opposition plays a really critical role. And I love all my former colleagues, but it's like chicken with your head chopped off kind of watching it. And I'm like, you know, eventually you're going to exhaust yourself. And so you guys are not being very strategic. I think there's people who think that they're not reacting to everything that they see. And then there's people who say they're overreacting and not being strategic in terms of what they're...And so they're really in a tough spot. But they're in a tough spot in part because I think we lack a charismatic voice as.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:32:11]:
As kind of, you know, there's no Barack Obama. There is no, you know, Bill Clinton. I mean, you and I both, you know, that's how we met was during the Clinton years. I was the state Attorney General and people always talk about Barack Obama. I said, you know, I love Barack Obama. He couldn't compare as a communicator to Bill Clinton, in my opinion. I mean, Bill Clinton had that ability, and I think because of how he was raised and how he grew up and I think fundamentally, the respect that he had for every human being, you know, it was reflected in how he would communicate.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:32:44]:
And so we don't have someone like that. I mean, I remember, you know, in the dark days of your administration, Bill Clinton actually went on the road. He actually went out and did rallies. He actually, you know, kind of took it to the people and, you know, overcame that. I mean, ended up pretty popular at the end of his term, in spite of all the challenges. But that was personality. That was a willingness to, you know, say mea culpa. Let's turn the page. Here's what I care about.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:33:12]:
I still care about you. You know, but we don't have that. So what, what advice do you have for my colleagues in the Senate who are struggling with, how do they respond to all of this?

Paul Begala [00:33:24]:
I think, Heidi, it's keep the main thing, the main thing. So, you know, I worked for President Clinton all those years during a campaign, I traveled with him, went to 48 states, to your state. The last week of the election, he called me up, this election, and he's like, why don't you come back on the road with me, Paulie? And it was like the old days, except now I'm old and he's old. But we bounced around the country campaigning for Kamala, and he's still the best I've ever seen. And I work for President Obama's reelect, who's an absolute genius, and we were blessed to have him. But you're right, Bill Clinton, the whole last week, the only thing he talked about was the economy.

Paul Begala [00:33:57]:
That was it. He's for abortion rights. He's upset about Dobbs. He's for whatever. The only thing he talked about was your cost of living. And if I were to advise a Democrat, yes, I am. They're listening. It's groceries, gas and rent.

Paul Begala [00:34:09]:
That's what got Mr. Trump hired. That's what we're going to hold him accounted to. Ain't nobody voted for Trump because they wanted to buy Greenland. They voted for him because they want to buy groceries, right? And so let's keep the main thing, the main thing.

Paul Begala [00:34:21]:
Groceries, gas and rent. That's what we care about. How is this - so when he says we chase everything, I, I don't think, by the way, our motto or logo, whatever it is, should mascot, should be the donkey. It should be the largemouth bass. Now, this is a Southern thing. I don't really know pikes and walleyes. Okay. For your listeners, but where I grew up, we fished for bass.

Paul Begala [00:34:39]:
And the largemouth bass, he chases every shiny object and he hits it and he's always surprised there's a hook in it. And you throw them back and you catch the same one three, four times because they're really dumb and they attack any shiny object.

Paul Begala [00:34:52]:
That's us. So let's not be largemouth bass.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:34:55]:
I actually call it the dog with the squirrel. You know, the. With the. Yeah, up.

Paul Begala [00:34:59]:
Yeah. So let's. Every time Mr. Trump says, I want to rename the Gulf of Mexico to Trumpistan or whatever you want to call, we should say, what's that going to do to the cost of my groceries, gas and rent? Right? I want to invade Panama. What's that going to do to my groceries, gas and rent?

Paul Begala [00:35:16]:
I want to occupy Gaza. What's that going to do to the cost of groceries, gas and rent? Just keep the main thing, the main thing. Because when you don't have power like this and you don't have a charismatic leader, you're lucky if you can penetrate with one thing. And what I would like my mama to know is that, gee, these Democrats really seem fixated on my basic cost of living. We can't communicate everything. Groceries, gas and rent.

Paul Begala [00:35:37]:
That's my mantra.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:35:38]:
Yeah, well, I mean, absolutely true. And I think we missed inflation ticked up Donald Trump, you know, blamed Biden right away. I think he's smart enough to know that with inflation ticking up, interest rates aren't going to get rolled back. He's taking a look at treasury, so he understands that he's got huge challenges.

Paul Begala [00:35:58]:
You have to be willing to take grief from your own base if you want to be a successful politician in this very large, very diverse country, right? So Bill Clinton was for 100,000 cops and welfare reform, and Barack Obama had the strictest border enforcement we've ever had. He had more people on the border than any president since Woodrow Wilson was chasing Pancho Villa and he was called the Deporter in Chief. He welcomed that. He said, I want to change the law, but until you do, I have to enforce the law. President Biden, and I love him, I really do, he never once picked a principled fight with the far left in his party. And so we got saddled with looking weak.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:36:36]:
Yeah.

Paul Begala [00:36:36]:
Because he should have been much tougher on the border much earlier. He should have bragged about, phrase my old man used to use, God rest his soul, was, 'turning to the right.' "How many rigs are turning to the right?" Means we're drilling. He should have bragged about that. And, and if the, if some of the more wonderful, passionate members of our party don't like it.

Paul Begala [00:36:52]:
Good.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:36:53]:
Yeah.

Paul Begala [00:36:53]:
That's part of what made Obama and Clinton successful is that the, the far left was attacking them. And normal people said, well, probably not all that bad then.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:37:00]:
All that bad then just to put a finer point, because I want to talk just briefly about the border and then we have to go.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:37:07]:
But I think that Donald Trump had a winning issue with shutting down the border and that he turned it into a losing issue by deporting a bunch of people who are working really hard. And so, you know, he's not perfect either, politically. I mean, to me, if I were, I would say, you know, all you had to do on the border issue was really spend your time. But you, you stepped over into that. You know, I'm going to deport 13 million people. And now that's the standard.

Paul Begala [00:37:35]:
Right.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:37:35]:
Of how successful he's going to be. And you know, and I know that there's going to be thousands of sympathetic stories in, in the range of people who are going to be asked to leave this country.

Paul Begala [00:37:46]:
Well, right. I was just down there. I wish I could tell you it's a fact finding trip. I was deer hunting with my kids. I'm, since I'm from Texas, we go down there and chase white tail deer. Did a good job too, by the way. I have a full freezer. So when you go down there, you hear exactly that.

Paul Begala [00:38:00]:
By the way, where I hunt, it's 100% Mexican American. And then my boys and me, you know, these white Irish guys. And they want strict border enforcement, but they also want to respect people who are living the American dream and paying taxes and obeying the laws. I guess if I were a Democratic mayor or governor, I don't like the Sanctuary City thing. I don't. But I would do, I'd stand in front of the jail and I'd say, Tuesday at 2pm I got 12 guys, come get them. But then I would stand in front of a Church or school, say, no, you're not coming in here. We don't want ICE raiding churches, right? We don't want people terrified when they're worshiping God.

Paul Begala [00:38:34]:
But if you're in jail, if you've committed a crime, this Laken Riley Act was just common sense, if you ask me, and a lot of Democrats voted for it. Why not get rid of the people who are committing crimes, stand in front of the jail, say, hey, come over here, Mr. Trump, I got him. Because that's what people want. They want to get the folks who are committing crimes the hell out of here. But they don't want some guy who's like working on a hot tar roof in Houston in August, who's busting his tail and sending the money home to his family, that he's not hurting anybody.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:39:04]:
Or somebody who's been somebody's housekeeper for 20 years, knock on the door and pull her out, you know. So it's, it's going to be interesting. Paul, I hope you come back. And I think we've given some folks some ideas. I just wish there was something like you said, you know, something a little bit more organized that people could plug into and could feel like at least they're having their voice heard. Because there's a lot of people in this country who are incredibly good, who are seeing what they think is the wrong direction, who know that as citizens, that's the most important responsibility we have to pursue corrections and things that are happening in the government. And if you're in a red state and you have a red Senator: call, keep calling. And one thing someone asked me, they said, well, what should I do? I'm helping all these rural communities with these grants. I said, document what's happening.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:39:58]:
Yes. So write down, okay, that housing grant. That's not coming, this isn't coming. And you send it to every congressional member, you send in your state and you send it to the Senators in your state and you say, this is what's happening on the ground, can you help me? And I think that there is going to be, you know, kind of an overwhelming of Congress once they see the magnitude of the disruption. You know, 20% of our economy, we don't like it necessarily. I think you and I are both fiscal conservatives, but is, is in fact federal expenditures. And when you disrupt that 20%, you, I mean, there are a lot of people talking about the economy going into recession as a result of all this.

Paul Begala [00:40:41]:
Amen. There's one other thing which is, listen to you and Joel. You've given a voice to so many of us who come from small towns in rural America. Although, like, my accent's a little different, I'm totally with your values. So, Heidi, thank you for having me on.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:40:56]:
You're welcome to come up and help cull the whitetail herd in North Dakota.

Paul Begala [00:41:01]:
Oh my gosh. I would love that.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:41:02]:
Yeah.

Paul Begala [00:41:03]:
Believe me.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:41:04]:
We'll talk to you later.

Paul Begala [00:41:05]:
Thanks, Heidi.

Joel Heitkamp [00:41:09]:
Hey, thanks for listening to the Hot Dish. If you like what you've heard, tell your friends about us. You can find us at onecountryproject.org. @onecountryproject on the social media. Heidi and I will be back in two weeks with more Hot Dish, comfort food for middle America.