One Country Project's Hot Dish

Heidi Heitkamp [00:00:04]:
Welcome to the Hot Dish, comfort food for rural America. I'm Heidi Heitkamp.

Joel Heitkamp [00:00:08]:
And I'm Joel Heitkamp. I'm excited for today's episode because you know what? We got an extra special guest.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:00:16]:
We do. It's Ken Martin, the chair of the Democratic National Committee. And he's joining us today to talk about all things in terms of organization and what's happening over at the dnc. Before being nominated Chair this year, Ken served as the chair of the ministry, Minnesota Democratic Farm Labor Party, or as we call it, the DFL, president of the Association of State Democratic Committees and Vice Chair of the DNC. But we kind of know him a little bit better as a friend.

Joel Heitkamp [00:00:45]:
Exactly. And I would add to that that he was always approachable. And it's good that he's here with us as one country as well. We're going to pick his brain and see what he's got in store for rural Democrats in the face of Donald Trump.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:00:57]:
And, Ken, I've been all over the country, traveling, you know, talking to Democrats who really, really, I think that they weren't happy after the election. I think a lot of them had pretty high expectations which weren't met. But they now are terrified, and they're terrified for the country, not for the Democratic Party. And they want something from the Democratic Party. I'm not sure they know what, but really excited to welcome you and to talk about, you know, kind of your vision of what you think you can deliver. And really, we have great listeners who want to be able to do something, and I hope that we can give them some direct tasks today.

Ken Martin [00:01:36]:
Absolutely. Well, first, let me thank you, Senator and Joel, for your friendship through the years. Heidi was a big supporter of mine in my campaign for Chair, which I was so grateful for your support. And, Joel, you've always been so kind to have me on for, on your show many times over the years to talk to folks in western Minnesota and, of course, folks in North Dakota. We've got a lot of work to do for sure. As you mentioned, Heidi, and this last election, of course, was a real gut punch for all Democrats and, frankly, Americans throughout this country who had hoped that Kamala Harris and Tim Walz would win. It was devastating, of course, but we have to remind ourselves that it was the third closest presidential election in over 100 years. It was the closest congressional election in our country's history. It doesn't change the fact that there's so much we have to learn and so much we have to do differently, of course. But I Remind folks of this because Donald Trump did not have a mandate. There was no landslide election. This was very close. And the American people were very divided on this question last year. And I think that's important as we frame up the conversation about what we're seeing right now, because the reckless way in which Donald Trump and Elon Musk and J.D. Vance have decided to govern would suggest that they had this huge mandate around what they campaigned on and they don't. We're seeing a lot of buyer's remorse out there all over the country. As you know, Heidi, I've been in now in 19 different states in my two and a half months on the job. Like you, Heidi, I spent a lot of time in red states in rural communities talking to voters who've, you know, left our party for many different reasons over many years now. Right. People like my father in law who's a beef cattle farmer down in Wells, Minnesota, who voted Democrat most of his life, but who voted for Trump in 16, 20 and 24. We all have people like that in our family. We all know people like that around this country, folks who are longtime members of our party who have felt forgotten and left behind. And we've got a lot of work to do. And I'm so proud of what you've been doing, Heidi, with one country and the work you've been doing to make sure that folks in rural communities throughout this nation know that our party isn't giving up on them.

Joel Heitkamp [00:03:47]:
So, Ken, you know my old legislative district, it was Bobcat, it was Melroe skid steers. That's what they built. Those boys are union boys.

Ken Martin [00:03:56]:
That's right.

Joel Heitkamp [00:03:57]:
I mean, we lost them. We got workers comp, we got family leave. We got things that made their life better as Democrats. And now they're not voting Democrat anymore. How do we get that back?

Ken Martin [00:04:10]:
Well, let me just say, Joel, you know that I also come out of the labor movement, right? I'm the first DNC chair that's a card carrying union member, worked in a union movement for years in the building trades. And so for me, Joel, this also is personal because we're not just seeing us hemorrhage votes in rural parts of this country. We're also losing votes with working class voters. And let me just tell you, this should not be a surprise for any of us because we've been seeing this trend line develop for some time. We've been losing working class voters this last election. We lost ground with every part of our coalition. I think last year, last spring, there was research droll that came out, that should have been the canary in the coal mine for all of us. Right? That showed for the first time in American history, the perceptions of the two political parties has actually changed. The majority of Americans now believe that the Republican Party best represents the interests of the middle class, the working class and the poor, and that the Democratic Party is a party of the wealthy and the elites. And sure enough, the only two groups that we overperformed with, just to prove the point, by the way, in the last presidential election were wealthy households and college educated voters. Only 30% of Americans have a college degree, by the way. Right? Most Americans, 70% of Americans are like my father in law, right? Who is a farmer who never went to college. Right? Or my brother who is a union carpenter who never went to college, went to trade school. The reality is, is most people are not college educated. And so we cannot be just the party of college educated voters and wealthy households. But what I would suggest is, you know, as you know, Joel and Heidi, I used to work for Paul Wellstone and he was my first boss and first mentor in politics. And Paul used to talk about what unites all the disparate parts of our party. And he used to talk about it through a Minnesota frame, which I know both of you would understand, which is what unites a corn farmer in southern Minnesota with a steel worker up on the Iron Range with the new immigrant in the Twin Cities. It's economics, right? Everyone has a job. Everyone's busting their butts feeling like the American dream is out of reach, feeling like they are working so hard but can't quite build a better life for their families. And for many folks, they're feeling forgotten and left behind. They feel like no one sees them, no one hears them, no one cares about their lives or their families anymore. And that's particularly acute in rural parts of this country where people see their towns drying up and their once vibrant rural cities and communities shriveling up and no one caring. You and I have talked about this, Joel, before. I talk a lot about Dave O'Rourke and the fact that, you know, when I asked him after the 16 election why he voted for Donald Trump, I thought I was going to get some answer around farm policy or egg policy. No, you start listening to him and he says, none of my kids, including your wife, want to come home and farm this land that's been in my family for 135 years. The clinic in downtown Wells is closed. So now I have to take my wife, who has Parkinson's disease, ou know, 50 miles away to get health care. The high school I went to has closed up now and I now have no Friday night football game to go watch, right? You go down the list of all these things. The reality is, is his identity is taken, being taken away from him. He feels like his community is dying and no one cares. And so along comes a guy, of course, a snake oil salesman, in my opinion, saying, I'm going to make America great again. And Dave O'Rourke, not a racist bone or in his body, one of the nicest guys in the world, salt of the earth farmer, right, decides, well, I'm going to give him a chance, right? Because I want my community to be like it used to be. I want things to be like they used to be. And it's happened throughout the country, right? We know this to be the case, Joel. And there's so many people in labor union members, the same thing, right? People who work their asses off who are just feeling like no one cares and no one gives a damn about their lives anymore. So part of how we get back is this, Joel. We actually have to focus on an economic populist message that gives people a sense that no matter who you are, no matter where you live, no matter where you're from, we're going to fight for you. We're going to be your champion. We're not going to leave you behind and we're going to fight for your community. Whether you're in a red part of the state, a blue part of the state or a purple part of the state, we're going to fight for you.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:08:25]:
Well, you know, the challenge that you have there is, you know, I can just hear our audience out there saying, but we've done all those things. We've delivered an infrastructure bill. We're the party that's fighting for affordable daycare. We're the party party that's fighting for school lunches. We're the party that's fighting for all the things that could in fact engage. And now you're seeing the decimation of all of that effort to rural America by this new administration basically pulling back on these grants. I have a friend who says it this way. Democrats, when they approach rural America, guess what? They're basically acting as missionaries and not neighbors.

Ken Martin [00:09:03]:
That's right here.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:09:04]:
We're here to do this for you. I mean, that's a cultural thing. And so many of the messages that they get from the Democratic Party nationally, and I'm not saying you, but what they hear is that missionary, I'm out there and it's like, you don't know me. And at One Country, we sounded the alarm years ago that this contagion of the disaffected, it started with farmers, it started with rural people. Now it's going to working people. It started, I think, in the Tea Party with union people not listening to them, saying, look, we like our health care, we bargained for our health care. So how do we culturally begin to have a dialogue within the Democratic Party?

Ken Martin [00:09:47]:
Well, I think there's so much to this because you're absolutely spot on. And Joe Biden admitted as much in his very last interview before the Trump inauguration. He was on TV and he said he focused too much on the policy, not enough on the politics. This is really important, Heidi, because at the end of the day, Joe Biden will go down as one of the most consequential presidents of my lifetime. Certainly most folks, right? He's....What he was able to accomplish during that four years for this country is tremendous, but he never got the credit for it. And you have to focus on the politics of it. You know, I go around the country last year, and I would ask people to be honest with me. How many people had heard of my governor in Minnesota, Tim Walz, before he was put on the ticket? Most people had it and they were honest with me. Right? And it's because, especially us Midwesterners, we believe in that old adage that you just do good work and you let the work speak for itself. You don't go out there and toot your own horn. Right? As a result, I don't think Joe Biden got nearly the credit he needed or deserved, I should say, on the policies that he ended up passing. But as importantly, Heidi, is that we have to actually use trusted messengers and validators and be in the spaces where people are getting information. And this is really critical lesson from the last election. Corporate America and the entertainment industry understood that 90% of Americans have one of these, which is a cell phone, right? And as a result of that, where people were getting their information, their news and their entertainment was changing. And we, of course, they started to shift all of their content into digital spaces, Corporate America and entertainment, et cetera, in politics and campaigns. We didn't really start that until 2020, and the Republicans really beat us to the punch. Now, I'm getting really tactical here, because the tactics matter. What the Republicans did in 2020 is they started to go into these digital spaces, the podcasts like this, the macro influencers, people who had a lot of followings on these digital Spaces. And, and all of that was great. We didn't start that until three and a half years later as a Democratic Party, as our candidates. And as a result, they were able to define us by beating the heck out of Joe Biden and the Democratic Party before we ever defined ourselves. That's one, two, what they did. And this is really sophisticated and goes to your point, Heidi. They use micro influencers. They would go into the small towns or into the suburbs. They would find the PTA mom who maybe had a thousand followers, right? But was someone who is trusted in the community. They would pay that person a few hundred bucks a month, and that person would say bad things about Joe Biden or good things about Donald Trump, and they would hire the high school or the college basketball player who had 10,000 followers and do the same thing. There's such things now, Heidi, as online knitting groups, right? And, you know, things we used to do in person are now done online. They would hire Tim the knitter, right? And Tim the knitter would talk about knitting 80% of the time with his online knitting group, but about 20% of the time, he would drop nuggets about Donald Trump or beat the heck out of Joe Biden. This very granular messaging operation that they put together was highly sophisticated. And the reason it was successful was twofold. One, it used trusted messengers from the local community to get their message out. And it also went where the voters are. Now, look, I'm a hunter, right? And people ask me all the time, where do I go to hunt? Now, you know this better than anyone, Heidi and Joel. You don't give up your favorite hunting spot, right? But. But if you're going to go hunt deer, where do you go?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:13:29]:
Where the deer are.

Ken Martin [00:13:30]:
Where the deer are. Yeah. Pretty simple premise, right? Well, here's the reality here. We weren't going where voters were at in terms of getting their information, and we weren't using trusted messengers and validators. So this is very tactical, but to me, in no disrespect, Heidi, but who are the most mistrusted people in America right now?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:13:49]:
Politicians.

Ken Martin [00:13:50]:
Yes. And who do we keep putting forward in our party to be our spokespeople?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:13:55]:
Politicians.

Ken Martin [00:13:56]:
Yeah. We have to get away from that, right? If we want to talk to people in rural communities or we want to talk to people in labor, who better to talk to workers than folks from labor, right? Or other workers. Who better to talk to folks in rural communities than people from rural communities? And using people who are trusted. We all know in some of these small towns, there's people that are sort of seen as the town spokespeople, right? And they're not politicians, but they're people that are deeply trusted within these communities. Those are the folks we need to be engaging in this conversation and having them help spread what we're doing and talk about our policies. And so it's much more complicated than that. But in some ways it's not that complicated. It's getting back to basic organizing and not leaving any part of this where ecosystems, this new information ecosystem untouched.

Joel Heitkamp [00:14:48]:
Ken, you're always so good at personalizing it, and I love that about you. You know, you mentioned that guy. So I'm going to make a run at it. I walk in the manager of VFW hall, and I sit down to have a beer with my buddies, the guys who are wearing tuxedos in my wedding. And those guys look at me as a Democrat. And you mentioned the word elitist. And you're spot on about that because that's what they believe. They totally believe it. They care about federal crop insurance. But the one thing they consistently look at me and say is, you Democrats don't even know how to load a gun. You know, I mean, you mentioned hunting. I mean, we are so disconnecting with people in the rural area about that issue. But I want to ask you this. When you look at where we go in the Midwest, we've got successful names that we've lost. Sherrod Brown, Joe Donnelly, Jon Tester. One of them is on this podcast, Heidi Heitkamp. Those are races that prove we can win. You know, how do we go back and win instead of talking about everyone who's lost a race?

Ken Martin [00:15:56]:
Well, what we have to do is first it starts with not giving up on any part. There's no such thing as a perpetual red state or a perpetual blue state, right? We have to find candidates who actually fit those districts and allow them to be true to themselves, right? And to run the type of race they need to, that reflects the values of the people in those districts. Right? So I'm not big on party purity or loyalty tests or litmus tests. There's a lot of different ways to be a Democrat. And I'll use Minnesota as an example. In Minnesota, in the 5th congressional district, I got Ilhan Omar, right, a leftist Democrat. Right next to her was Dean Phillips, a centrist. Right next to his district for years in the 7th Congressional District was my good friend Collin Peterson, a conservative blue dog Democrat. All of them could be more different in terms of the ideological spectrum, but all of them were important. Why? Because our job is to win elections as political parties and to get enough people elected to win majorities in the U.S. Senate or in the U.S. House or State Legislative races. I say all this, Joel, because at the end of the day, we need to have a bigger aperture on how we actually win. And we can win in states like North Dakota. It wasn't that long ago when Heidi was there, right? At the end of the day, it wasn't that long ago that we had Democrats elected statewide in both of those places. It's going to take investment of time, energy and money and it's going to take us building the infrastructure to support our candidates so that when Heidi, or a Heidi in the future decides to run in North Dakota, she has infrastructure built on the ground already that can help her succeed as well. And so. And then it's going to take national Democrats to pull their heads out of the sand and realize that we are more than just a party focused on seven battleground states. We can win in North Dakota, we can win in South Dakota, we can win in Iowa, we can win in Kansas and Nebraska, we can win in Utah. We can win throughout this country if we find the right candidates and we build the infrastructure to do that. Which is why my whole plan on what I ran on was organizing everywhere so you can win anywhere. And just today, just today, we announced historic investments in our state parties to build that infrastructure, including the Red State Fund, which is the largest investment we've ever made as a national party in helping red states. Every Red state is going to receive $22,500 a month that they get to use to help build out their party and build the infrastructure on the ground throughout North Dakota to help us win, just as an example, right? And that's true of Red states throughout the country. Now, why is this important, Joel, and I'm sorry for going on here, but this is important. The Brennan Center just put out a report about a month ago that showed that the five fastest growing - actually it was a few months ago, I'm sorry. The five fastest growing states in the country are Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Texas. The sixth is Florida. So six of the 10 fastest growing states are all in the U.S. South, right? Many of them Red states. Most of the states that are going to lose congressional power after the next census are northern states like Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New York and Rhode island, states in the Northeast. And that power is going to shift to the South. We cannot be caught flat footed. Now, I'm from Minnesota, so I have to use a hockey analogy. And Wayne Gretzky said this once. He said, you have to skate to where the puck will be, not where the puck is. And you've heard that quote before, Joel, meaning we as a party have to start to realize if we keep disinvesting in Red parts of this country, which are some of the fastest growing parts of this country, we're gonna be caught flat footed and we're gonna be in a permanent minority.

Joel Heitkamp [00:19:46]:
Ken, you did a good job of pointing out where people are listening. I get that. I understand it. But that's talking to Republicans and you're often running on that. That's talking to the people that might be independent. Who talks to Democrats? Who are you going to use to talk to Democrats so that they start thinking about the things that you can't? Because you can't do it all.

Ken Martin [00:20:09]:
Well, that's the point about finding local messengers and trusted validators, right? People that, you know, you can't just have the same group of, you know, politicians being the spokespeople for the party or folks from Washington, D.C. right? Folks who've never set foot. And no disrespect to anyone on this call, but there's a lot of consultants in Washington, D.C. who've never spoken to a voter, never set foot in any of the states that I mentioned just a second ago, right? And they certainly don't know anything about the middle part of the country where I'm from. So, you know, all those consultants, by the way, they don't work at the DNC anymore. I fired them all on day one. I'm done with these politicians in Washington who think they have all the answers, right? About how to win elections, who've never set foot in most of these states. So let me say this. As it relates to messengers, this is really important. We need people who are trusted messengers and validators, who people know and trust. It's not celebrities. It's not just podcasters like you, Joel, and media personalities. It's deeper than that. It's people in the communities who are connected to voters and connected to the community, who can speak with authenticity. Right? And it's really important. And let me just lastly say this. If people think there's one person coming in to save the Democratic Party, they're wrong. You know, this sort of savior mentality that there has to be one leader, right? Who is the leader of the Democratic Party, who's the messenger of the Democratic Party. That's just the wrong frame for this. There's many messengers of the Democratic Party. There's many people who can be effective in helping us to connect our values back to the voters that we've been losing. And we have to take that approach.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:21:46]:
Ken, the brand is so damaged.

Ken Martin [00:21:50]:
It is.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:21:50]:
I mean, you can talk about all this, and if we were starting from ground zero, creating a brand, but right now, the brand is really damaged. And you see that over and over again. But I'm going to tell you what I told an audience recently, because they said, what should we be doing? What should we be doing? And I said, first thing we need to do as Democrats is apologize. And the room kind of gasped. And I said, look, you know, whether we want to admit it or not, Joe Biden was not ready to be president for four more years. I realize this is sensitive territory for you, but, you know, who's going to say we were wrong to say that he was ready? We were wrong to say the border wasn't a problem. And once you acknowledge where most of the voters were and what they believed, then you can get on to kind of like, okay, now will you listen to us? I think that we need to acknowledge that mistakes were made. And, you know, I get that Joe Biden was incredibly important, did really important things, but clearly it was part of why we lost, that people felt like we weren't trustworthy.

Ken Martin [00:22:56]:
Well, I do think it's important to not gloss over the mistakes that were made. And there were plenty of mistakes that were made in the election. There always are, Heidi.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:23:04]:
I mean, but not tactical mistakes, but policy mistakes made by the previous administration. I know, Joe is a dear friend and he's a lovely man, but we needed to do something different than what we did in the middle of this last term. In terms of turning the page.

Ken Martin [00:23:22]:
Here's the one thing I would say, Heidi, because it does. I get asked this question a lot, which is, should President Biden have run or not, right? Was that what cost us the election? And I don't know. I don't think anyone really knows. It's an academic exercise. Well, I don't know. I mean, I don't think I know. And, you know, I've been doing this a long time, too. And what I would say, though, Heidi, is I respect everyone's view on this because there's people who feel passionately both ways, right?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:23:51]:
Not a lot, Ken.

Ken Martin [00:23:52]:
Yeah. Look, I think from my perspective, and I've often taken this approach on this, it doesn't do me any good right now as I'm trying to think about how we win the election in the future to have a debate about whether or not Joe Biden should have run or not. Because at the end of the day, it doesn't help inform the future. What I am interested in is where did we actually fall down on the job? What were the things in this last election that we can learn from, truly learn from, that can help us inform the future elections so we're prepared to win again. And there's a lot. There is a lot. And a lot of it is not just about this one singular election, but it's been building for years, right? Because we've been ignoring certain communities, we've been ignoring certain geographies. We've been taking a very much narrower approach to our politics. Right. In 2000, I ran Vice President Gore's campaign in Minnesota. And in '04, I ran Kerry's campaign in Minnesota. The battleground map in those years, presidential battleground map was quite extensive, right? Sixteen states, I think in 2004 was the number of battlegrounds. We are now competing on a map of seven battleground states. Our map keeps shrinking and shrinking and shrinking, right? This electorate is more polarized than ever. We're losing ground in places that we used to win as Democrats. And that's never going to change until we have to. Your point about having a look in the mirror and acknowledging the challenges, those are the challenges we have to actually start addressing, which is why are we losing ground throughout the country in areas that used to be solidly blue. Why are we losing ground with every demographic group within our coalition writ large? There were no exceptions last year. We lost ground even with Black women who went from 94% under Biden in 2020 to 92% under Harris. We lost ground across the board, Heidi. And that's the stuff that I have to spend time thinking about because that helps me inform the future and it helps us turn the page and figure out how we actually rebuild to win.

Joel Heitkamp [00:25:53]:
Let me ask you this. Going forward, Donald Trump and his tariffs have just put us in a terrible spot economically. You mentioned economics earlier. You know, the areas that we talk to through the Hot Dish are areas that are traditionally voting Red, period, plain and simple. But my guys can't make it on $10 soybeans.

Ken Martin [00:26:15]:
That's right.

Joel Heitkamp [00:26:15]:
I mean, they can't. They can't make. And these tariffs are taking away markets long term. They see the ports being built down in Brazil. They know what's happening long term to these markets. So a little bit of money might come sprinkled their way to cover their butt, right? But you know what, getting your ass covered isn't going to help in terms of long term, making sure that the cash rent is paid. So is there an opportunity to go back to farmers, to some of these people in a rural area and say, look, economically he's setting you up for a fall long term?

Ken Martin [00:26:50]:
Absolutely there is. I mean, think about this. I mean, his erratic trade policy is going to have devastating impacts. It already is on America's farms, both small, medium sized farms, even the big farms. This trade war, by the way, is putting global markets that Americans rely on in jeopardy. And as an example, you know this, Joel, more than half of the US Soybean exports went to China last year. Minnesota being the third largest exporter here in this country. But now that price has jumped by 135% under the tariffs that China just installed in response to President Trump's 145% tax on Chinese imports. My father in law on his farm, he farms, you know, corn and beans, of course, but he also has beef cattle as I mentioned. You know, their farm income is being impacted already, right? We're seeing this across the board. I also want you to think about this. They were already financially strained in this second term. Family farms have filed for bankruptcy at two times the speed in the first three months of 2025 compared to the same period in 2024. So look, in Trump's first term, farm bankruptcies soared. We're seeing that increase significantly more just in these first three months. We're seeing these tariffs wreak havoc on the markets. And we're seeing this impacting especially the small to medium sized farmer like the Dave O'Rourkes of the world. What does that do for us, Joel? It provides an opportunity. It provides us an opportunity to have a conversation now with farmers about Donald Trump, the Republicans and their real commitment to rural communities and the rural economy. The reality is, is Donald Trump speaks out of both sides of his mouth, right? The reality is he could care less about rural communities, he could care less about the rural economy, and he certainly could care less about farmers. So we have an opportunity as Democrats if we don't start talking to farmers and recognizing again, when we talk about the working class in this country, the working class is Black, Brown and white people. And it's people in rural communities, in the urban community, it's people in the suburbs, it's people who are working their asses off, who can't get ahead and who are feeling left behind and forgotten. And so when we talk about these tariffs, it's making it harder for people to actually afford their lives. It's making it harder for them to put bread on the table. It's making it harder for them to actually keep their businesses afloat. I met with a farmer down in St. Louis, Missouri, 30 year old farmer. I wanted to meet with him just one on one, Joel, because I had read his story and he comes in wearing his MAGA hat. He's a Trump supporter. And he starts telling me the story about how he just took over his family farm, that's been his family's farm for 100 years. And he tells me a story about how the bank's about to foreclose on the farm because of the cuts to the USAID program and he had a beef contract with them. And he starts crying. This farmer starts crying to me. He's wearing his MAGA hat and he feels like a failure because he's about to lose his family's farm, which they entrusted him. Well, this is the point. And I raised that to him. And he said, I feel so betrayed. I had faith in Donald Trump. I thought he was going to support me and my community and my family. This is the opportunity we have, Joel and Heidi.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:30:12]:
But think about this, Ken. He got up that morning and put that hat on.

Ken Martin [00:30:15]:
I know, I know.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:30:16]:
But this is the point that I want to make, is that it is about putting on the Minnesota Vikings jersey. It's about kind of where do you belong and what your community is supporting. And I go back, and I hate to keep bringing this back, but the brand issue, right? In the not so good category economically, but the good category for what you're doing is Donald Trump is making this easy, right? He is doing things that are so beyond the pale for so many Americans. Literally 2 million people took to the streets almost organically.

Ken Martin [00:30:50]:
That's right.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:30:51]:
Tell me how strategically - and every corporation that has had a crisis and I think the Democratic Party is in crisis, thinks about brand restoration. So how do you restore the brand of the Democratic Party?

Ken Martin [00:31:06]:
Yeah, it's so important. And we're bringing in experts, not political consultants, but brand experts to have this conversation. Folks from corporate America and from other places who have done this, to your point, Heidi, because this is the biggest problem. You know this better than anyone.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:31:24]:
Well, you put a D behind your name in our state. Forget it.

Ken Martin [00:31:27]:
That's right.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:31:28]:
I mean, they can say, in fact, they ran campaigns against me: "Don't vote for the likable one." They can like you all you want. They can like me as much as they like me, but I'm not a Republican.

Ken Martin [00:31:38]:
Well, we've seen this in different tests that we've done over the years here, Heidi, which if you go and talk to someone about all the issues and you never mention your party, right? They're shaking their head, they're agreeing with you, right? And then all of a sudden you mention you're a Democrat and they're like, oh, no, I don't want anything to do with you, right? That goes to the brand problem you're talking about. Our brand is really not good. In fact, you see that in the approval ratings right now. Our, the Democratic Party approval, is lower than J.D. Vance's and Donald Trump's, right? I mean, that tells you something in this country right now. We got a lot of work to do. It's the lowest it's ever been in our party's history. And that goes to perceptions and feelings. And what a brand is not, by the way, is a slogan. No, a brand is a perception and a feeling, right? At the end of the day, people do not feel like the Democrats are fighting for them right anymore. They don't know what we stand for, who we are. And part of this, I would argue, Heidi, is because we've allowed ourselves. And I don't know when this started happening. I started 35 years ago in 1990 in politics. At some point along the way, we started to message to smaller and smaller parts of our coalition. And as a result, we had a hundred different, thousand different messages and they all seem to be in conflict with one another. And, and we forgot about the things that unites all of those various parts of our coalition and we stopped talking about that. And again, that's an economic agenda. I believe that part of fixing our brand problem is how we talk about our message and then showing people that we're going to fight for them. And the reality is this, Heidi and Joel, half the battle is showing up. The other half of the battle is fighting hard. And then the other part of it is making sure that when you actually get elected to office, you deliver for people. You see, I think a lot of people look at the Democratic Party and they feel like we've voted for you for years and our lives are not changing. Things are getting worse and worse. And we have to acknowledge, and this is why I'm so proud of Tim Walz and folks in Minnesota is when you get into office, you actually have to do something with that power yet. We did a thing, some research about a month ago, Heidi and Joel, that we asked folks a number of questions, but one thing we asked is what is the one word that you think describes the Democratic Party? What do you think the biggest word was that people used?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:34:03]:
I'd say arrogant.

Ken Martin [00:34:05]:
Okay. Joel, what do you think?

Joel Heitkamp [00:34:06]:
I would say elitist.

Ken Martin [00:34:09]:
Okay. The number one word was weak. They think we're weak. And you know what? You know why they like Donald Trump? Because they think he's strong, and they think that he believes what he says, is gonna fight like hell for what he believes in. So where does all this perception and brand problem come from? It comes from the fact that people think we're weak. They don't feel like we're fighting for them in their community. And so we have to be able to show strength. We have to have a brand that shows that we that they're included in it. And they have to be seen in what we're doing. Right? They have to see that we are fighting for them. In 2016, someone said to me, the Republicans are shameless, but the Democrats are spineless. And that has always stuck with me because so much of this is people think the Democratic Party is weak. The other part of this is branding problem, and it's really tactical, is how we talk to voters. We use stats and facts and reason. Right? We're oftentimes trying to educate voters, and as a result, we're never really trying to connect with people in terms of the heart and on values. Democrats, we're always trying to appeal to the brain. We're using stats and facts and reason. We're trying to educate voters to our position. As a result, we're not listening, we're not having a conversation, and we're not telling stories and giving them a sense of who we are and what we stand for. It's all so connected and very complicated, Heidi. Only to say that we have have to get at this because it's much. It's not just cultural issues. People say, well, you got to abandon your values or you got to come up with a whole new policy prescription. That's bullshit. And let me tell you why. Look at Missouri as an example. In Missouri, they passed paid family leave, they passed minimum wage increase, they passed abortion protections on ballot measure by wide margins. Last November, those same voters went down the ticket and voted for Trump and the Republicans. Right? This is to your point, Heidi. Anything with the D next to its name in certain parts of this country is toxic. But there's many of these people support the policies that we support, right? In wide numbers throughout the country. These measures are passing because people believe in what the Democratic Party is standing up and fighting for, especially around economic issues. And that's what we gotta get back to. Focus on economic policy, focus on how we're gonna help people regardless of where they live.

Joel Heitkamp [00:36:39]:
But that's why what I'm saying matters. Who's gonna be that hard ass? I mean, who's gonna be that guy that when you go in the bar with him, you'd hand him your car keys. Cause you know when the fighting started, he wouldn't go running out the door. Who's gonna be that guy for the Democratic Party that's tough enough to basically say, all right, let's go, let's dance.

Ken Martin [00:37:03]:
Well, listen, I'm certainly doing that and I'm fighting everywhere, but there's a lot of other people that are, too. I think we've got this amazing bench of great governors and other folks out there right now that are doing awesome things and taking the fight to the Republicans. We've got a lot of folks that aren't in elected office who are doing that as well, right? So, Joel, this is something I hear a lot, right? And it's hard for me to answer only to say that there are a lot of people out there that are rolling up their sleeves and fighting right now. There's not one person. And this is the challenge we always find ourselves in when you're without a president, right? Because there's no natural person you can point to to say, who is the leader of the Democratic Party? Who's that person who's going to be fighting? Right? I'm out there fighting, right? But I don't consider myself the only spokesperson for the Democratic Party, even though I'm the Chair. We have many effective spokespeople out there who can speak to voters in ways that are credible, authentic, and show them that we're actually fighting.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:37:59]:
Ken, I'm going to turn to something that really drove a lot of dissatisfaction because the numbers among Independents and Republicans, more people turning to the Republican Party, those have been bad. But you're losing Democrats. And what happened with Chuck Schumer? Number one, I defended Chuck's decision to vote for the CR, the Continuing Resolution to Keep Government Open. But the message was so bad. Like, how much are you talking to Hakeem Jeffries? How much are you talking to Chuck Schumer? How much are you talking to Bernie Sanders, people who've been out there, people that people look to as spokespeople for the Democratic Party?

Ken Martin [00:38:40]:
Well, I talk to Senator Schumer and Leader Jeffries all the time and of course, to the Chairs of the Campaign Committees, Suzan DelBene and the DCCC, and of course, Senator Gillibrand, who's running the campaign for the DSCC. So we're in constant communication. I've spoken multiple times with Senator Sanders and most of the US Senators, as well as a number of our Congressional Leadership. And so that happens all the time. It's just part of the role here. But one of the things that I will say that I've been frustrated with in my two and a half months on the job, and I'm probably being a little bit too candid here, Heidi, is that I'm just not a creature of D.C. in this town. What frustrates the hell out of me is that the left hand doesn't speak to the right hand. There's no coordination.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:39:27]:
So fix that.

Ken Martin [00:39:28]:
Well, I'm trying to fix that. Well, there's 60 different silos in this town, right? It's not just between the caucuses. It's all the various groups and organizations. We can't. We're at a moment right now, Heidi, to your point, there can't be 60 different strategies. There has to be one strategy. And what really, truly has been the secret to our success in Minnesota, if I'm being very honest, it's not me or our elected officials, but it's the fact that, you know, the structures we created there. There's no daylight between the party, our elected officials, our outside partners and allies like labor and other organizations. We work together literally around one table, both to support the work at the Capitol in St. Paul, both the inside and outside game, but also in terms of running our campaigns and elections. So it's one team, one fight, one strategy. In D.C., I'm just so frustrated because the CR debate's a perfect example on this, right? You had multiple different strategies. And regardless of how you felt about how certain people voted, that, to me, it didn't matter. What mattered is that we can't be disjointed in our strategy. We have to have one strategy.

Joel Heitkamp [00:40:36]:
Ken, I just gotta say this. We've kept you longer than what we said we would.

Ken Martin [00:40:41]:
Oh, I love this conversation. It's awesome.

Joel Heitkamp [00:40:44]:
Just a couple of things I wanna point out. Number one, I'd give you my keys in a tough bar. I give you my word on that. But Sue and I, my wife and I are looking for that person when we skip church that gets up and watches George or Meet the Press or whatever, that leaves us high fiving. That's all we want. We want that person, when you mention the word is weak, we just want that person that, that makes it easier for us to go to that VFW Hall that night. And I think we made that clear in this conversation it sounds like. But if anything else, I hope you walk away with the message that the people that you put up or that you get the opportunity to put up are the people that can speak for me, a little more blue collar, and can really make people think that there are other types of Democrats out there. That's my point, Ken.

Ken Martin [00:41:36]:
I'm with you, Joel. I hear you 100%. And guess what? We have that! We have you, get out there. That change that we all want starts with each of us and with the networks we have. And you have such an amazing following here. And keep fighting, keep doing what you're doing, but it's gonna take all of us at this point, using every platform.

Joel Heitkamp [00:41:53]:
They haven't canned me yet, right, Hyde?

Heidi Heitkamp [00:41:55]:
Well, and you know, this is another point which is they've ignored local media people like Joel, and you raise more money if you're on CNBC or on MSNBC. Guess what? You know, that's not where the voters are.

Ken Martin [00:42:09]:
That's right. This is my point.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:42:10]:
Those people have made up their mind.

Ken Martin [00:42:12]:
This is my point. Why we keep going on these places where, you know, we're just talking to ourselves. We got to get into these local radio stations like what Joel's doing, right? Get out to places where it's not just Democrats that we're talking to. We got go where borders are. And you know, these are the things we need more of, long form conversations where we can get into the weeds, where we can really talk, you know, the down and dirty and give people a sense of what's really going on there. But let me just say this. I'm going to leave you with this. Mark Dayton gave me a plaque. He's a former governor of Minnesota, you guys know that. But he gave me this plaque that said, "None of us are as smart as all of us." And it's something that I really just fundamentally believe. You know, I hate to break this to you, but I don't have all the answers, right? I'm just a guy from Minnesota with a strong opinion about what this party should look like. But it's going to take all of us at this point. And I just want to thank you for having me on. And I want to thank Heidi for her support and everything she did in the US Senate and all she's doing right now with One Country. Count me as a supporter in this work that you're doing to help us reclaim rural America and make sure that people hear from us as Democrats that we're still fighting for them. So thank you, Heidi, for all your work.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:43:22]:
You bet.

Joel Heitkamp [00:43:22]:
Ken, thanks for coming on the Hot Dish. Really appreciate it.

Ken Martin [00:43:25]:
Thanks, guys.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:43:31]:
We are so thankful that Ken took time out. I mean, can you imagine, Joel, people like us bitching at you every time you turn around and he does it with a smile. And, you know, a lot of what he said is just common sense. But I'm telling you that, I mean, there's just a lot of work that needs to be done.

Joel Heitkamp [00:43:48]:
But I would add this. I liked the answers. I really did. I liked the answers. I liked the fact he didn't run from the questions.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:43:56]:
Well, I think that one of the things that he did do is he answered some of the questions like who's speaking for the Democratic Party? He said, no one. No one's speaking for the Democratic Party. And he also talked about making an investment into Red states. I think he gave everybody a wake up call when he talked about demographic and population shifts and what needs to happen.

Joel Heitkamp [00:44:18]:
But there is an opportunity here. The one thing you and I talk a lot about when we're alone is the fact that if this is going to turn around, it's going to turn around because of the economy and the fact that we're better at it as Democrats. And we are better at it as Democrats. We really are. And history has shown that. So we run the country better.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:44:39]:
Yeah, I know. But let me tell you this, Joel. We've now been through three elections, presidential elections, where the message was, all we need to do is remind people how terrible Donald Trump is. Guess what? It only worked on one out of three because we had a pandemic and people were scared. But you have to come with a message of clarity in terms of how you're different and what you're going to do differently. And he didn't like the apology question because I don't know who would issue it. But you need to start out saying, you know, and he obviously can't. But I can say, look, you know, we all had an obligation to give you, you know, an opportunity to select your own candidate, and that didn't happen.

Joel Heitkamp [00:45:24]:
Heidi, for our listeners out there, Ken can't answer all the questions. I mean, really, is there anything else you want to let the people in D.C. know? You know, please send us your thoughts.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:45:36]:
I hope that you email us after you listen to this and maybe additional questions for the DNC. So email us. Our email address is podcast@onecountryproject.org and "one country project" is all one word.

Joel Heitkamp [00:45:51]:
That's right. You can also reach us on Bluesky and Substack.

Heidi Heitkamp [00:45:55]:
I want to thank you all for joining us on the Hot Dish. It's brought to you by our very favorite project, the One Country Project, making sure the voices of the rest of us are heard in Washington. Or at least we're hollering at Washington. So learn more at onecountryproject.org.

Joel Heitkamp [00:46:13]:
We'll be back in two weeks with more Hot Dish, comfort food for rural America.